Apologies if this double posts, hamsters ate my first attempt.
Joe Morgan, baseball analyst for ESPN has submitted the following piece of total garbage suggesting that Mets pitcher Shawn Estes needs to hit Yankees pitcher Roger Clemens with a pitch during Saturday’s scheduled game. Joe Morgan isn’t alone, Mike Francesa and Chris Russo (popular radio sports talk personalities) have also made similar comments.
Am I the only one who thinks that fans and analysts calling for a players beaning is just fucking vile? If you choose to bean a guy during the heat of a game, go ahead, but to plan a beaning over a 2 year old incident (Clemens hit Met star Mike Piazza 2 years ago) is just goddamn wrong. They had multiple chances to “get the Yankees back” after the incident, they could have hit one of the Yankees stars in that same game, if it was soooo fucking important. They could have actually, you know, gotten a few hits off of Clemens in the World Series, of course they didn’t.
Two years after the incident, Clemens will be in the batters box at Shea Stadium, and everybody wants him to get hit with the ball. Joe Morgan even has the audacity to suggest that the Yankees should just sit there and take it when Clemens (their #1 pitcher) gets beaned and possibly injured.
Frankly, I’m afraid to even watch the game given that it could turn into one of the ugliest events I’ve ever seen in baseball, fueled by idiotic fans and “analysts”.
In Joe Morgans’s autobiography, he describes a situation early in his major league career, when opposing pitchers were throwing at him a lot. In those days, being Black was more of a factor than it is today. He credits his team’s pitchers for protecting him by retaliating. He says the retaliation was necessary to control the opposing pitchers
I suppose his opinion is affected by his own experiences.
First off, Francesa and “The Mad Dog” are fucking boneheads, so I immediately ignore ANYTHING and EVERYTHING they say or think or choose to bleat and screech about.
2nd: If this “incident” had taken place in an alternate universre where Clemens was pitching for say, the Blue Jays and Piazza was catching for say, the Marlins, then do you think it would be getting bleated about by all of the “sports reporters” or that it would get all of the attention it has gotten. A huge part of this is the whole “They both play for NY teams, & NYC is the most important & greatest city in the history of the universe, so obviously this is the most important sports story in the history of the universe, blah, blah, blah…”
It’s a fucking baseball game. Nothing of any consequence WHATSOEVER is going to come out of this or will be decided by this game.
NOTHING.
The whole Clemens/Piazza thing is simply being used to hype an otherwise utterly and completely meaningless interleague game.
Now, all of that being said, given the penchant for Mets fans to be among the rudest and most boorish in sports history I wouldn’t be surprised if a fan whipped out a .38 Special and tried to shot Clemens.
I suppose, but I don’t give a shit if he’s black or Black. He’s a damn moron. He’s about as fucking stupid as an analyst in pro sports can be, spouting off information that either a) is already common knowledge or b) completely incorrect. He backs up his opinions with the most dizzying leaps of logic and generally has nothing of any import to offer. In short, a complete waste of space.
As for this retaliation bullshit - it was two years ago. Get over it. “Sending a message” is what fourth graders do on the playground. Play your fucking game.
After all, it’s one thing to pitch inside to someone who’s practically standing on the plate (I’m looking at you, Mo Vaughn), and it’s another to intentionally throw at someone’s head. Do these idiots who analyze and criticize these games realize the ball’s being thrown over 90 miles per hour? Does the “revenge” need to come at all costs, including possibly ending the career of another player - perhaps even injuring him, or killing him?
These overpaid (!), superegoed, overmuscled macho dipshits who feel they must prove or defend their manhood by throwing a spheroid at another human being with the intent of hurting him need to get over themselves - no amount of chest thumping is worth intentionally hurting another player. I don’t care how much you were ‘shown up’ - get over it, you babies.
On the one hand, I can sympathize somewhat with Clemens… the way hitters crowd the plate, it’s essentially impossible to pitch inside without hitting someone, and since some of these hitters wear these great huge pieces of body armor and don’t really much try to get out of the way, it’s even more likely someone is going to get hit, even when you’re not throwing at them. Clemens has a right to try to pitch inside. On the other hand… he sure does bean a hell of a lot of people, and it’s only a matter of time before he hurts someone.
On the whole, I agree with minty. I’d say that trying to hurt him is stupid and should result in a suspension, but he should expect a few fastballs up and in. Especially if he crowds the plate himself, which would just be too poetic.
If he gets a few high and tight, a little “chin music” so to speak, so be it. That’s part of the game, and there’s nothing wrong with it. I might even offer up a chuckle or two if he has to lean back away from a high fastball. I just hope it doesn’t wind up in a giant, ugly brawl.
I’m kind of interested in how Clemens got the headhunter moniker. I checked out a few stats when I was supposed to be working, and it appears to me that he hits batters less often than the average AL pitcher. 1 hit per 30 innings for Roger vs. 1 hit per 22 on average. Of course, his control is much better than average so he may still hit guys more often than he should.
Offhand, I might offer a few suggestions. One is that, as you said, he’s not hitting batters because he has no control. He does like to pitch inside, which I suppose might be interpreted as headhunting. There are also some really boneheaded moves, like throwing the bat at Piazza, and his recent comment about hitting Bonds (yes, he said later it was taken out of context, or misrepresented, or some such, but that’s not the point; the point is that it was reported in such a way as to make him sound like a headhunter).
And since he joined the Yankees… he’s hitting 1 batter per 22 innings. Certainly I’ve seen some pitches of his which look like purpose pitches, and once he got a bit of a reputation, these things don’t help change it.
I’m a lifelong Yankee fan. And I’m hoping that Estes will plunk Clemens right in the fattest part of his ass(assuming he has any fat on his ass, I’ve never actually checked). Why there? Because there’s no chance of injury there. Why plunk him at all? So all these damn sportswriters and talk show hosts will shut the hell up about it already.
Frankly, I was surprised to read that article from Joe Morgan. I have always found him to be a pretty good read, and I love watching games with Jon Miller and Joe behind the mic. I don’t agree with him here, only b/c it happen so long ago. It should have been resolved already.
That said, I agree with WSLer - this is a non-issue in any other city in the world. Even if it happened between two teams in the same city - Giants / A’s, ChiSox / Cubs - I don’t think it would get any attention.
Bear in mind, Joe Morgan started playing baseball in a different age. When he was a rookie, the National League was filled with pitchers like Bob Gibson and Don Drysdale, guys who’d bean you as soon as look at you.
Bill White (former National League President) likes to tell people that, when he played with the cardinals, Bob Gibson was his best friend. They went everywhere together, did things together, their wives and kids hung out together, etc. But when White was traded to the Phillies, the first time he batted against the Cardinals, Bob Gibson threw a fastball at White’s head, and knocked him down.
Do I approve of that? No, but that was typical of the mentality in baseball, as recently as the early 1970s. The other guy was your enemy, and if you had to stick one in his ear, to let him know who was boss, you did it.
I don’t agree with Joe Morgan, but it doesn’t surprise me that a player of his age and generation still thinks that way.
Yeah, but Joe Morgan, baseball analyst, ought to be able to have a clearer picture of the baseball landscape than Joe Morgan, second baseman, once had.
Joe Morgan is a pinhead. He might be the worst commentator I have ever seen cover the sport. He has absolutely no ability to judge the intricacies of the game, which is stunning considering that he played it at a Hall of Fame level.
I am a Mets fan, and I will be furious if Estes throws at Clemens, gets himself ejected, and ruins any chance the Mets have of winning the game. The team is spiraling toward the NL East cellar, can’t score a blessed run, and has been embarassing itself at every turn, and you want to give up an entire game just to, what, get Clemens’ uniform dirty? Bah.
Let me see if I’ve got this straight: according to you. Clemens makes a remark about hitting Bonds, but Clemens then said that his remarks were taken out of context or misrepresented but that’s not the point; the point is that it was reported in such a way as to make him sound like a headhunter .
No, the point is that Clemens was quoted out of context simply so that every yaboo and loser-boy could call into WFAN and screech and bleat and make a HUGE issue out of a complete non-issue.
On the list of things that are of actual importance to the world, this one doesn’t even make it to the fucking qualifying round.
Sorry for going off on a tangent for a minute…but back to our topic.
According to you, what Clemens ACTUALLY said is of absolutely no importance, but the way that his words were twisted and THEN reported is important.
Do you have any clue how fucking stupid and illogical that is?
Alright, for the mentally impaired, I’ll explain, even though, frankly, I’d have thought that even a 5-year-old with three brain cells would have been able to figure this out. Obviously, I’m either giving myself or your average 5-year-old with three brain cells far too much credit. :smack:
In terms of helping cement his reputation as a headhunter (which would be what my last post was about, in case that went over your head, too), all that you have to do is report a comment of his in such a way as to make him sound like a headhunter, reinforcing the previous reputation (this would be due to the amply demonstrated fact that, well, people are idiotic sheep). Whether his comment was serious, or made in jest, or lifted out of context, or whatever else (I seem to recall he’s claiming some such thing), the way it was reported made it sound as if it was serious and that he was in fact going to hit Bonds. Obviously, this would make one think that he was going to hit Bonds, ergo, that he’s a headhunter. As far as his reputation goes, it doesn’t matter if he was serious or not; all that matters is that it looked as if he were serious.
See? That was pretty damn easy to understand! All you have to do is think a little bit; don’t worry, it gets easier with practice. Moron.
…which he did. IMHO, Bonds was crowding the plate and Clemens wasn’t going for his head, but the bottom line is that he said he would bean Bonds and he did.
And my 2 cents on the OP- not that I’m condoning retaliation, but I can at least understand it if it occurs the next inning, next game, or maybe a month later- but even that seems like a stretch. 2 years later? Let it drop.
As an analyst, I agree that he shouldn’t be calling for Clemens to be beaned, however:
I completely disagree. Listening to him on Sunday Night Baseball on ESPN, I find his baseball knowledge and insights into the intricasies of the game to be exceptional.
You know, I probably over-reacted, so an apology to WSLer is perhaps in order. So here you have it.
That out of the way, of course Clemens did hit Bonds, and I’m not at all convinced it was unintentional. In my view, Clemens deserves his reputation as a headhunter, and his “I was just kidding” defense, or whatever he’s using, is probably a crock o’ shit.
All that I’m trying to get across is that even if he didn’t mean to hit Bonds, and even if he was just kidding, the facts that (a) we know he said he was going to hit Bonds, and (b) he did hit Bonds would certainly lead me to conclude that he is a headhunter, even if he in fact isn’t, his comment was a joke, and hitting Bonds was an accident.
Personally, I think Piazza should have taken care of this issue by himself when Clemens threw the broken bat at him.
Clemens is a wacko. He has a big mouth and a bigger ego. I hope he does get drilled on Saturday. He throws a 90+ fastball and hits Piazza in the head. He could have killed him. Maybe if he piched in the National League, he would understand that drilling a guy on purpose will cause him or one of his teammates to face retribution.
Gibson, Drysdale and others that loved to pitch inside also had to step up to the plate. Clemens has never had to worry about it because of the DH. Hitting a guy in the thigh is one thing. Throwing at his head is something else.
If I’m pitching to Clemens, first pitch would be a curveball that starts at his head and breaks over the plate. The second pitch would be a fastball at his earhole. Maybe then he’d understand what it’s like to be on the receiving end of a deliberate attempt to injure.
Hitting Barry Bonds was a sideshow. After the game, they probably got together and compared notes about how much they are paying for their 'roids, human growth hormones or whatever the hell they are on and laughed their asses off.
I’m neither a Yankees nor Mets fan. I am, however, a former catcher.
I think that beaning an opposing player has a place in baseball. I’m not talking about a 90+ mph fastball to the head, but being beaned in the back shouldn’t be enough to cause the benches to clear or the batter to charge the mound. It’s a part of the game. There’s a time and a place for it. In my own personal (really really old-fashioned opinion) I think Barry Bonds (and a lot of the other players) should be plunked in the back after almost every homerun. Not because they hit it, but because they stand there in awe and amazement at their own ability before deigning to trot around the bases to make it official. But that’s my own thing. You hit a homerun, run around the bases and then take your bows outside the dugout.
Sorry to get sidetracked. I don’t know about this particular incident with Piazza, I don’t really remember it from way back. But, just on general principles, I think Clemens should have to take at least one to the back, show how he can really take one for the team. He really should learn what it means to be standing in there with a ball coming in at 90+ towards the head.
The statement about hitting Bonds because of the elbow padding/protector and then going ahead and doing it is probably one of the stupidest tricks that Clemens has pulled. It might not matter a whole lot in the long run, but it just shows that he’s not quite right upstairs.
[sub]Oh, and Piazza can’t even carry Pudge’s pads.[/sub]
I want to apologize to. these days I tend to get wound up faster. Sorry.
One thing that’s been bugging me. I always thought that “beaning” specifically referred to being hit in the head by a pitch, with everything else being shoved into the general catagory of “hit by a pitch.”
I’ve never heard an announcer say, “Bonds was beaned on the elbow by that Clemens fastball.” But I have heard announcers say, "Clemens beaned Piazza with that fastball!! That’s outrageous.’
Anybody else feel this way?
Plus in Clemen’s defense, batters do crowd the plate a lot more now then they did 15, 20, 30 years ago.
