IMHO Clemen’s should get hit, but not with a 90+ fastball to the head. A ~70 shot to the lower back will do fine. I’m a Yankee’s fan (well, I was a Mattingly fan and they used to be my 2nd favorite team behind the Cardinals, I’m pretty indifferent anymore) and I hate HATE ** HATE** the Mets (POND SCUM), but I still say Clemen’s should get hit.
dead0man
I think this is an excellent point. If in this alternate baseball universe John Rocker had shot off his mouth in Sports Illustrated about the boorish fans in Cleveland or Cincinnati the whole thing would’ve blown over in 2 days, but since Rocker had the termerity to criticize Noo Yorkers he became baseball’s public enemy number 1.
Joe Morgan certainly is not an idiot; he is by all accounts a bright man. He was one of the smartest baseball players to ever wear a uniform. But he’s a bad commentator, because
A) He’s just not a skilled writer or broadcaster, and
B) He gets his emotions and his feelings about various supposed “rules” get in the way of reporting the facts.
If you want a counterexample, look at Buck Martinez, who was a terrific commentator but turned out to be a dolt as a manager.
As for the Clemens thing, it’s a tempest in a teapot. Yeah, he throws inside. Suck it up. I don’t mind batters wearing body armor, but pitchers will pitch inside. That’s the nature of the sport.
With Yankee fans, including myself, saying that Clemens should have been spherically spanked, Joe Morgan was totally right, Cheesesteak.
It is all about being intimidated and about being the intimidator in the batter-pitcher matchup (best exemplified by the Randy Johnson/John Kruk at-bat in the All-Star game a few years back). The problem with the current Mets are/were that they are too mellow and take more than they should have. As a result, they get intimidated at critical times when they shouldn’t, such as the aftermath of the two Clemens/Piazza incidents in 2000.
Clemens is an intimidator. He is so while showing great control of his pitches. And if anybatter charges him on the mound over an occasional HBP, he can more than defend himself, being one of the most fit players ever. There are many who say that his fearlessness is such because he doesn’t have to go up to bat, except during the All-Star game/interleague/WS game in an NL park. Mets fans were seething when Torre had Clemens skip his turn at Shea last year, thinking that Torre was protecting from the Mets pitchers getting their ‘revenge’ on Clemens.
Point taken. They did need to retaliate, but they should have done it 2 years ago, and I still don’t think it’s proper for analysts to be calling for such a thing. Given the actual outcome of events I’m a little less pissed off on the one hand, and a bit confused on the other.
Net of it is, Shawn Estes did throw at Clemens, on the first pitch, and as Nanook suggested, tried to hit him with a fastball in the ass. He missed, and the ball actually wound up going behind Clemens. Warnings issued all around and that was the end of it, I guess. I wouldn’t be able to complain too much if he got smacked in the ass, he isn’t likely to get injured, but it would sure as heck hurt.
Now the confusing part, Estes was allowed to remain in the game, why exactly? At the very least, I figured that if he hit Clemens that he would be thrown out. It was talked about all week, very highly publicized, and the umpire doesn’t eject him for a blatant beanball? Obviously, the ump decided what he was going to do long before the game, eh, whatever.
BTW, I thoroughly enjoyed Bobby Valentine (Mets manager) acting all pissed off that warnings were issued for a “ball that got away” from Estes. :rolleyes: Sheesh, be happy your guy stayed in the game, take your win, and go home.
I can see the headlines now…
Clemens the Anti-Christ escapes unscathed
Estes burned in effigy
And in other news, nuclear bomb explodes in LA, millions killed
Let me just say that Bobby Valentine is a complete and utter asshole who has no respect either for the rules of baseball or the umpires. The best example of this comes from a few eyars back when after getting thwon out of a game, Valentine painted on a greasepaint mustache and put on a T-shirt and sunglasses and then returned to the dugout to manage.
WHAT THE FUCK???
Add to this his comments after yesterdays game about how, “This situation may not be over with, lets wait 2 years and see.”
Well, Bobby, the Met’s keep playing as well as they are and you won’t be managing them in 2 years.
Fucknostril.:wally
First of all, Morgan never said that Clemens should be beaned. Being beaned means being hit in the head with the pitch, anything else, as already indicated, is just being hit by a pitch.
Clemens has long been known as a headhunter, even before he hit Piazza. Piazza has hit Clemens very well in their few meetings. Whether Clemens was just pitching inside or intentionally trying to hit him, doesn’t matter, as Clemens’ past actions made many people think he was trying to hit Piazza.
Many pitchers pitch inside and even hit batters to intimidate them. That Clemens did this to Bonds as well is no surprise. Clemens also did it to his buddy and former teammate Mo Vaughn when Clemens was with the Blue Jays… the first time he ever pitched against Mo.
I agree that Morgan is thinking about his days as a player in his article. However, I don’t think it is so much a matter of player mentality versus commentator mentality as it is about pre-DH and post-DH, National League and American League baseball.
I think this is pretty clear by his quoting Dusty Baker, who says that Clemens would be thrown at quite a bit if he pitched in the National League.
Don Drysdale and Bob Gibson were headhunters, but they at least had to face their opponents at the plate. Clemens almost never does. Drysdale and Gibson were hit by pitches; to the best of my knowledge Clemens never has.
With the DH preventing pitchers from batting, there is no statute of limitations for retaliating against a pitcher for being hit by a pitch. It should have been settled last year, but Joe Torre juggled the rotation so Clemens wouldn’t pitch at Shea Stadium.
I disagree with some posters’ characterizations of Joe Morgan. He’s one of the best announcers in the game, and has been recognized for it with both a Cable Ace award and an Emmy award.
Is it just me, or is Tim McCarver still bitter about being canned by the Mets? He spent a good part of the game criticizing the Mets franchise and praising the Yankees.
I can only listen to him do games on ESPN for a couple innings. Tonight the TV went mute after he again talked about the Estes-Clemens thing. With ESPN’s satellite delay, listening on WFAN was a bit weird as Bob Murphy was calling balls and strikes when the pitcher released the ball.
Oh yeah… a foul ball did shoot back into the TV booth. You almost had your wish.
I think Murphy drinks Reingold beers during the game. He gets as bad as Ralph Kiner at the end of the game.
A couple of Murphy gems:
“Despite having the worst record in the league, the Padres have a heck of a team!”
“When the sun’s shining, people smile more!”
Still, I would rather listen to Murphy and Kiner’s insightful slurring than Fran Healy, Tom Seaver or Keith Hernandez.
I’m going to the next Mets/Yankees series at Yankee Stadium. It should be a lot of fun.
I do disagree about Joe Morgan saying that it’s not over, and that the Mets “failed” when Estes missed Clemens. Sure, it would have been better if Estes had been a few inches left with his pitch and gave Clemens a little black and blue on the rump, or even a glancing blow, but its over. The Mets made their point, and drove it home by beating Clemens and the Yanks.
Clemens is one of the greatest pitchers ever, and the greatest of his era (with all due respect to Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson). Still, it’s good to see him get a taste of National League baseball, even if he didn’t get a very good taste.
Based on what WSLer and FNRFR said, I’d like to change my use of the word “beaned” to “plunked” for greater accuracy.