Game of Thrones 4.03 "Breaker of Chains" 4/20/14 [No spoilers]

Cafe Society
421

But she didn’t have loyal forces within Westeros. The people are *really *not hiding Targaryen banners under their beds, waiting for the One True Queen. The Spice King righteously mocked that idea into oblivion, pegging every smugness detector in Qarth in the process.
The people are growing 'taters and winter is coming. They have their own problems regardless on who’s on the throne. Nobody but the nobles gives a good fuck about Dany. And among the nobles there’s not an overwhelming amount of loyalty :). Even if there was, the only people who might still actually be loyal and wishing for the good old days are Barristan’s and Maester Aemon’s age.

Finally, showing up in Westeros half- or one-tenth-cocked, when there’s still an open order to murder her on sight and when we see the kind of things that happen to full-cocked factions (e.g. the Red Wedding, Renly, Blackwater Bay)… yeah.

:dubious: So when I think the scene we saw in this ep was rape, an opinion that is shared by quite a few people I might add, I must be (and I quote) “not level headed about the subject”. Now I have an axe to grind against Nice Guys. I feel pretty strongly that Samwell is a goony-ass goon, do I have a chip on my shoulder about IT departments, or possibly Trekkies ?

[QUOTE=Marley23]
But that’s also true.
[/quote]

We (and he) don’t really know that - for one thing the Targs used to ride them, so as I joked in a previous thread, did they just hang on for dear life ? Dragon rodeo style ? :). For another any predatory animal, even loyal and loving dogs, will reflexively go apeshit when you try to nick the food they’re happily nomnomming.

Well, yeah, but he had no way whatsoever to know that beyond “I don’t like this guy” or “I don’t like rich guys”. He didn’t conceive that his pile o’ treasure might be bullshit, for sure.

The deal as offered, had it been made in good faith and had Ducksauce not turned out to be a con artist (though one wonders how he maintained his exuberant lifestyle without at least a minor fortune) was good for Ducksauce too, sure - he’d have profited from the conquest and he’d have had a strong favour owed which would have made Queen Dany less independent a ruler - but then the whole realm is in the same boat vis-à-vis the Iron Bank, Robert owed the Lannisters… No ruler ever pulled themselves by their bootstraps. Even now, Dany owes quite a bit to Grey Worm and his droogs.
And then again, she’s the one with the dragons. Had he proven a scheming or demanding husband after the big win he wouldn’t have been long for this world.

422

So are you saying Jorah is giving her bad advice deliberately, or that he’s simply wrong and/or not omnipotent? Giving good advice doesn’t mean you always give infallible, optimal strategy. Your case at this point is essentially “I find flaws in Jorah’s advice, therefore he deliberately sabotaged her to cockblock everyone else”

Besides, he may have been right anyway. She’s not going to Westeros on the back of an army paid for by rich foreign nobles, who would retain as much or more control as her. She’s raising her own army that’s loyal to her specifically. And certainly her motivation hinges on the idea that people in Westeros can be rallied to her cause. If she shows up, dragons at her back, with the current king being viewed as illegitimate or ineffectual, it’s entirely plausible people would see which way the wind was blowing and act as though they were secret Targaryen supporters all along.

Imagine Selmy had said the same things that Jorah did. Is that something totally implausible? Would Selmy be a Nice Guy too?

What sort of answer are you looking for here? Yes, you can be wrong about a lot of things. You’re aggressively wrong about this. Jorah is essentially the model of someone who’s still loyal and still looking out for the best interest of the target of his unrequited love. He’s the opposite of a passive aggressive “Nice Guy” who only makes appearances at kindness and support because he thinks it can be used for manipulation later on - he’s the real deal.

Your two examples are actually related, in that you rush to interpret both of them along the lines of your own absolutist biases. Essentially any sort of murky half-consent is the same as violent gangrape, and any sort of unrequited love is a passive aggressive “Nice Guy”

423

Wait, can someone remind me, who is “Ducksauce”?

424

I agree we as viewers don’t really know how dragons behave; Jorah might know a bit more. But I think at that point one of the dragons was hissing at her while she had its head in her lap, which does seem mildly unsafe. She’s self-taught when it comes to dragon husbandry while her ancestors presumably had dragon trainers (not to self: movie idea?), so he’s right to tell her to be careful and not to humanize them. People who handle dangerous animals get killed when they do that.

He had no way to know that specifically. He had reason to be mistrustful of the guy and to remind her not to jump at the first offer that sounded good. He’s an adviser, so that kind of thing is part of his job description.

But they would have been foolish to assume the deal was being offered in good faith and that Daxos was exactly what he said he was. That’s the point. She is new at ruling and intrigues and she can’t afford to be trusting. And owing your army for a victory is different from owing favors to someone who backs your claim to the throne. She may have to make some kind of compromise like that eventually, but when she does, it’ll have to be a better deal.

Unless he stole her dragons first… you know, like he actually did. That plan came pretty close to working.

Xaro Xhoan Daxos. The Wiki is about the show, but there are book spoilers if you scroll down too far.

425

The chubby, black, rich guy who sponsored/hosted her then betrayed her to the sorcerer guild I am surmising.

426

Thanks. So is the nickname “Ducksauce” based on his last name?

427

He’s giving her self serving advice that always boils down to “don’t trust anybody, except me”, and he is not always right. He was against trusting Barristan when he showed up also, who was one of the most honorable and brave knights to ever live. His advice is entirely about keeping her depending on him and nobody else, not about what is best for her. Which is ironic since he has already betrayed her.

428

My disagreement is about the word “entirely”. I think one of the things that makes GoT such a good show is that people are rarely ENTIRELY anything, with the exception that Hodor is entirely Hodor.

Until we see Jorah giving Dany advice that is 100% clearly wrong and destructive to her but is self-serving for him, I don’t think we can describe his motives as ENTIRELY self-serving.
For instance, when they met Ser Barristan, Jorah could easily have done something like stab Barristan in his sleep that night and then lied about who Barristan had been, or something of that sort. Instead he accepts Barristan’s presence, while maneuvering to downplay Barristan’s trustworthiness and play up his own. I think his motives are complicated.

429

that and his love of sweet and sour chicken

430

And another poor fool falls into Hodor’s trap–mark my words, the final scene of the series will be Hodor on the Iron Throne, with a single word on his lips: “Hodor.”

431

Hodor.

432

Yes, he’s not always right. That doesn’t mean he’s not giving good advice in good faith. He’s not omnipotent - because he does not always issue the optimal strategy in every situation doesn’t mean that his advice is deliberately flawed or his loyalty is called into question.

Can you imagine someone who didn’t have a hardon for her giving her the same advice? I could. Saying that you shouldn’t be beholden to foreign rich guys for your power, that you should try to raise it organically amongst the people you want to rule seems like a pretty reasonable viewpoint.

Being cautious with a guy who was the head of King Robert’s kingsguard after Robert had tried to assassinate her is fairly reasonable, although he came to trust Selmy very quickly. But he also felt threatened in terms of status - he’s been her right hand man and Selmy came in and started trying to take his place. Imagine if someone came in and started trying to take Davos’ role and Davos was cold towards him - that doesn’t mean Davos wants to fuck Stannis.

Jorah is set up for the unrequited love thing, and it will probably blow up in his face in some way in the future, but that doesn’t mean that he’s not sucking it up right now and being a good and loyal adviser, because he is. His advice, even if you don’t think it’s optimal or agree entirely with it, has been sound and has been consistent with furthering Dany’s position. It’s selling a wonderfully portrayed and complex character short to say “oh lol cockblocking Nice Guy on the loose”

433

[QUOTE=SenorBeef]
So are you saying Jorah is giving her bad advice deliberately, or that he’s simply wrong and/or not omnipotent? Giving good advice doesn’t mean you always give infallible, optimal strategy. Your case at this point is essentially “I find flaws in Jorah’s advice, therefore he deliberately sabotaged her to cockblock everyone else”
[/QUOTE]

I don’t think he deliberately gives her destructive advice. That wouldn’t be nice, now would it ? But I don’t think it’s a huge coincidence that every advice he ever gave had an “I’m the only man you should need around” component nested inside it.

Yes. It’s pretty much the Westeros version of “The Iraqis will welcome us as liberators”.

Even more so that when Jorah urged her to cross the sea with him the three dragons were still the size of poodles and the loyal army was him and Kovarro, mostly.

Smells like straw up in this bitch.

Thank the Seven, and you for seeing it. I felt like I was taking crazy pills over here :).

[QUOTE=MaxTheVool]
For instance, when they met Ser Barristan, Jorah could easily have done something like stab Barristan in his sleep that night and then lied about who Barristan had been, or something of that sort. Instead he accepts Barristan’s presence, while maneuvering to downplay Barristan’s trustworthiness and play up his own. I think his motives are complicated.
[/QUOTE]

Well, yeah, he’s not some cartoonishly Chaotic Evil villain. Nobody said that. But he is still a lot more manipulative that **SenorBeef **gives him credit for. That doesn’t make him a rotten bastard or anything, just, you know. A flawed, dogged nice guy. I think he might be trying his best to be a genuinely good friend and a better man, but keeps getting in his own way.

Moving on, what’s our take on Kahleesi’s relationship with Daaaaaaario ?

Back in season 3 she seemed pretty into him, there were a few cheeky smiles when he couldn’t see them and of course he was the one she wanted to hear about after the sneaking mission… but this season, she seems a bit more tired of his shtick and less flirty, doesn’t she ? There’s less chemistry. Maybe it’s his newfound dearth of monsterchin :p.
I think she always wanted him to fight the duel hence the Three Bears routine with the other contestants, but I’m not 100% on whether it’s because she wanted to prop him by giving him an opportunity to badass it up, punish him for his impertinence earlier, or simply because it was a win-win proposition : either he killed the Meereenese champion, or he got scragged and nothing of value had been lost. Thoughts ?

434

I thought she was being honest. Grey Worn and Jorah are too valuable and she (wrongly) didn’t think grandpa was up to it.

435

I don’t see that Grey Worm is particularly valuable, or at least not irreplaceable - not to sound like a dick or nothing but there’s about 8,000 more where he came from, no ? What makes him different from every other Unsullied ?
Daario commands the loyalty of 2k off-screen cavalrymen who may or may not desert if something nasty were to happen to him. I doubt they all share his postulates re: the intrinsic casus belli of Beauty, anyway :). The Unsullied on the other hand all volunteered with Dany* and simply selected GW as their mouthpiece and de facto captain. If he died, there’d be another selection.

That’s of course not to say that Dany’s free to play with or throw away his life, but in a realpolitik sense he seems less valuable than The Artist Formerly Known As SuperChin.

  • though the cynics among us might idly muse that they might have done simply because they had no earthly idea what else they could be doing with themselves, or even a real concept of what freedom entails
436

I thought Ser Barristan was ruled out as his job was protecting Daenerys?

Also, I suspect he would have been a bit more honourable in a fight and risked screwing everything up.

437

Daario fought cleverly, not dishonorably. Is a swordsman afoot expected to stand there and be ridden down by a mounted lancer?

438

I guess that really depends on what bizarre duel rules a culture has. Honour in medieval cultures didn’t always consist of merely “That seems reasonable” type rules.

But I agree Grey Wurm isn’t necessarily an outside the box thinker and might have screwed it all up.

439

We don’t know, one way or the other. Nor do we know how the unsullied might react to their self-chosen leader dying. Certainly it is not out of the realm of possibility that he is unique, or close-to-unique, in his ability to lead the Unsullied.

440

Well, that would certainly out-St. Elsewhere St. Elsewhere…
:open_mouth: