Game of Thrones 5.10 "Mother's Mercy" 6/14/15 [Show Discussion]

[StarvingButStrong]

One of the biggest bragging points about GOT has always been that it defies the conventions of fantasies, that it sets up situations where readers expect that 'X" will happen but then instead they give us “Y”, that we cannot expect that characters will triumph or even merely survive just because they ‘deserve’ to. That this was new and refreshing and pleasing to the fans. And it was. WAS

Because it looks to me like that now is exactly what is turning off many fans.

I wonder if it is because the writers of the show are betraying a fundamentally important though unstated contract with the watchers?

One of the most common pieces of advice given to writers is that they must make the reader buy into the characters, especially the protagonists. That readers will continue to read once they care, because they will want this person to achieve his goal. But in doing so, aren’t they also making an implied promise that the protagonist will, on at least some level, triumph? That though the author may, no, will, put him through trials and torments along the way, he will succeed in the end. Perhaps at great personal cost, perhaps he will even die in the process, but at least his sacrifices will have achieved a good for himself or for something in the world he cared about.

If instead you hook your readers into caring and rooting for a character, only to turn around and destroy him, aren’t you basically playing a nasty trick on the reader? And if you then repeat that trick, over and over, isn’t it reasonable that the reader will simply refuse to play along any longer?

As in, if very, very occasionally a ‘good’ character is destroyed, the reader/viewer will be surprised and possibly appreciate being surprised even while mourning the lost person. But if you do it over and over and over… Isn’t it just to be expected that the reader will tire of it? And once the audience learns that any character that is presented as admirable is almost certainly going to killed/raped/maimed soon enough, surely it isn’t at all surprising they will refuse to care any more for any of the characters to prevent their emotions from being jerked around again.

And if the reader doesn’t care, he’s not going to read, right? Most people aren’t Charlie Browns. At some point when Lucy tees up that football they’re going to say 'Fuck you" and walk away.

[msmith537]

So basically, in one episode, they made the Wall, Stannis and Dorn storylines irrelevant. Possibly Brienne’s story as well.

[Saint_Cad]

@Tangent

Big props to Lena Headey for baring it all for “The Passion of the Cersei.” As much as I hate the character, that was tough to watch.

Or the body double. Lena was pregnant when that was filmed.

[Rigamarole]

@msmith537

So basically, in one episode, they made the Wall, Stannis and Dorn storylines irrelevant. Possibly Brienne’s story as well.

How is a storyline “irrelevant” if it doesn’t result in some great triumph that you’ve been conditioned to expect? It is what it is. I, for one, enjoy the journey and not knowing where or how things will end up.

[Rigamarole]

@StarvingButStrong

One of the biggest bragging points about GOT has always been that it defies the conventions of fantasies, that it sets up situations where readers expect that 'X" will happen but then instead they give us “Y”, that we cannot expect that characters will triumph or even merely survive just because they ‘deserve’ to. That this was new and refreshing and pleasing to the fans. And it was. WAS

Because it looks to me like that now is exactly what is turning off many fans.

Ratings for the show have been rising steadily every season. Aside from a dip for episode #7 this season, and although the figures for episode #10 aren’t in yet (at least on this chart), I’d be willing to bet the season ended on an all-time high.

[Garula]

@toombs

okay but, since the plotlines that made it relevant in the books (so far) have been left out of the show, why even bother introducing the element of Thoros of Myr being able to resurrect Beric? Why show him explaining it to Melisandre? Since the showrunners have probably known about the Ides of the Watch plot point for a long time, all of that seems like great big giant foreshadowing that resurrection is going to come into play in a much bigger way later.

The fact that they sent Melisandre off to Castle Black at the right moment seals it for me. She’s a little off her game right now, but, this was the reason we saw her cozy up to Jon Snow earlier in the season - if Stannis ain’t “the one”, then maybe Jon is. Otherwise why was that scene and the hinting he was special even included?

Honestly, the story writing is worse off if Jon isn’t resurrected.

Yeah, it seems like everything with the Brotherhood Without Banners could have been pretty easily cut. They never come up again and don’t really impact the story. So, that leads me to think the same thing: they needed to keep that tangent in order to establish the possibility of resurrection much farther down the line. And since Mellisandre is the only character in the mix who could potentially perform such a feat, it feels like a first act gun whose time has come.

Or, Jon is dead forever. It’s really just guesswork at this point, I think.

[Deeg]

@StarvingButStrong

One of the biggest bragging points about GOT has always been that it defies the conventions of fantasies, that it sets up situations where readers expect that 'X" will happen but then instead they give us “Y”, that we cannot expect that characters will triumph or even merely survive just because they ‘deserve’ to. That this was new and refreshing and pleasing to the fans. And it was. WAS

Because it looks to me like that now is exactly what is turning off many fans.

It turned me off. Martin has turned into a one-trick pony; it appears that the only plot twist he knows is to kill off a character and the only emotion is the stomach-punch. That’s one of the things that pissed me off so much with Shireen’s death–he introduced a Nicholas Sparks character for the sole purpose of torturing her to death. It’s weak writing to keep going to the same well and now he’s used it on Jon, Stannis (apparently)–which makes Shireen’s death all the more pointless–and possibly Theon and Sansa. I’m tired of it; if I want to read the same plot twist over and over again I’ll go read a Harlequin romance novel.

[Tangent]

@Saint_Cad

Or the body double. Lena was pregnant when that was filmed.

Yeah, we’ve covered that already.

[ISiddiqui]

@Deeg

It turned me off. Martin has turned into a one-trick pony; it appears that the only plot twist he knows is to kill off a character and the only emotion is the stomach-punch. That’s one of the things that pissed me off so much with Shireen’s death–he introduced a Nicholas Sparks character for the sole purpose of torturing her to death. It’s weak writing to keep going to the same well and now he’s used it on Jon, Stannis (apparently)–which makes Shireen’s death all the more pointless–and possibly Theon and Sansa. I’m tired of it; if I want to read the same plot twist over and over again I’ll go read a Harlequin romance novel.

What makes you think these are all Martin plot twists?

[Dale_Sams]

I’m stunned that people entertain the idea for one second that Theon and Sansa are dead. I give maybe a 2% chance that Theon dies related to that jump. And that’s only to cut to the chase with him. I mean it’s not bloody likely Theon is going to live a long fruitful life or anything.

Sansa dying is a 0.000000000% chance.

[up_the_junction]

LOL. And allegory is pretentious. Oh well.

I do think Theon’s is an interesting arc. I always assumed he would rediscover himself under duress and kill bad boy Bolton. He is now re/discovering his humanity through Sansa which is a nice twist.

Loved the splatter and little noise as the kennel keeper’s daughter hit the ground.

[EllisDee]

@Dewey_Finn

The weird thing is that this was the second time the Night’s Watch assassinated their Lord Commander. They also did so in the second or third season north of the Wall at Craster’s house. Perhaps that’s a consequence of them being mostly convicts sentenced to service at the Wall?

@Sam_Lowry

Yeah, I had forgotten about that. I don’t remember really any repercussions happening for that either. It’s probably happened other times before the show has started too.

The repercussions for killing Jorah’s father were that every last man involved was murdered. Not specifically for justice, of course; the stated reason the Night’s Watch risked life and limb to kill them all was to prevent them from giving intel to Mance. But they were all killed to the last man.

@Eyebrows_0f_Doom

In the past when this show has offed major characters (Ned, Robb, Catlyn, etc.) it has been very clear from the moment it happened that they were killed. There was never any doubt about it, so the act was shocking. This time, there was something about it that felt… unresolved maybe? The fact that so many people are not certain that he’s dead, if the writers mean for him to be dead, is a failing on their part.

I don’t hold that against the writers, I place blame for that on fans. It reminds me of something on The Walking Dead, where separated main characters finally reconnected. One (Michonne) gets to the house where the other two are staying (Rick & Carl), looks through the window and sees the two of them. Roll credits.

That is as clear as you can possibly make it, but many fans refused to believe it. They would say things like “But we don’t see all three in the same frame!” The Walking Dead thread for that episode went on for pages and pages with debate about whether Michonne had actually found Rick & Carl. It was endless.

The next episode, of course, Michonne was with Rick & Carl exactly as everyone should have expected, because the show made it clear as day. People just wanted to look for a surprise twist so they could feel smart about having known all along the show was trying to fool them. I think this “Jon isn’t dead…” debate is more of the same.

@Garula

Yeah, it seems like everything with the Brotherhood Without Banners could have been pretty easily cut. They never come up again and don’t really impact the story.

The Brotherhood had a notable impact on the story in two ways: First and foremost, they were the plot device that put Arya and The Hound on the road together. And second, they were the plot device that gave Gendry to Melisandre and Stannis.

[Recusant]

@Rigamarole

Huh? He didn’t want to get his scabbard dirty. How is that at all significant? Just basic hygiene.

Exactly- that’s why it’s significant. No one else does that. I’m not ordinarily one to notice tiny little details like that, but it was so egregious (and so repeated) that it really started to get to me.

When I saw Quorin Halfhand- the legendary ranger who supposedly spent an entire winter north of the wall- sheath his sword without wiping it down while walking through the snow, I actually found myself saying out loud “I hope you’re not going to need to draw that quickly any time soon!”

[up_the_junction]

I have to say it is a bit cliched to have a central character killed as the last act of a season. I guess it’s fine but a big selling point of GoT is that it subverts convention - OMG they can’t do that, and then they do that, and a lot more. So the death of Jon Snow … I dunno, also, what happened to change their minds between letting him and the Wildlings through the gate and his murder?

Fwiw, I think that Ollie committed the coup de grace means it is for real, as that adds the pathos, though I am really curious as to where this leaves Mad Mel …

[msmith537]

@Rigamarole

How is a storyline “irrelevant” if it doesn’t result in some great triumph that you’ve been conditioned to expect? It is what it is. I, for one, enjoy the journey and not knowing where or how things will end up.

Maybe not Stanis. At this point, I think his death is the logical and most satisfying conclusion. His story is one of a morally conflicted man who ultimately sacrificed everything in the name of what was, ironically, probably the most legitimate claim to the Iron Throne, only to fall short.

But I feel the entire Dorn story line was pointless, unless we are going to have a major war with Dorn.

And with Jon dead, what do we care about what happens at the Wall at this point?

Also, why would anyone think Brienne didn’t kill Stanis or Jon might be coming back and yet think Sansa or Theon didn’t land in a snow drift?

[clairobscur]

@msmith537

And with Jon dead, what do we care about what happens at the Wall at this point?

Huh? What happens in the north is the whole point of the series, since the first shot of the first episode of the first season. How could we not care?

[up_the_junction]

I guess the poster just wants to jump in and get attention on page 5 and 6.

[Cheesesteak]

@msmith537

But I feel the entire Dorn story line was pointless, unless we are going to have a major war with Dorn.

Who’s going to war with Dorne? The king whose wife and mom were imprisoned in his own city by an unwashed hobo and did nothing about it?

I’m thinking that so far, the Dorne story line was totally pointless.

[oft_wears_hats]

@Deeg

It turned me off. Martin has turned into a one-trick pony; it appears that the only plot twist he knows is to kill off a character and the only emotion is the stomach-punch. That’s one of the things that pissed me off so much with Shireen’s death–he introduced a Nicholas Sparks character for the sole purpose of torturing her to death. It’s weak writing to keep going to the same well and now he’s used it on Jon, Stannis (apparently)–which makes Shireen’s death all the more pointless–and possibly Theon and Sansa. I’m tired of it; if I want to read the same plot twist over and over again I’ll go read a Harlequin romance novel.

I disagree with this. Yes, Shireen was definitely likable, but I think that was necessary so that we were emotionally invested in her fate, so that we engaged with the character. If she had been like Joffrey, we’d have been rooting for her to be sacrificed. Even if she had been a non-entity, we wouldn’t have felt Stannis’ conflict as acutely, or hated him for what he did as strongly. I don’t see it as emotional manipulation so much as good story telling. Shireen was well developed so we would care when she was sacrificed.

If you’re looking for emotional manipulation, I think Oberyn fits the bill more closely. He was immensely likable, had some great scenes, and then died horribly because of his own carelessness. Now that was manipulation.

[Unauthorized_Cinnamon]

@adaher

It’s not like they took a vote before deciding to open the gates. Whoever was in charge of that heard an order and followed it in the absence of an active conspiracy to overthrow Jon as leader while he was gone. Such a conspiracy probably didn’t get started until he returned with the wildlings. While he was gone it was probably assumed that he wasn’t coming back, or at least wouldn’t come back successful. Prior to that there was grumbling, but the idea of killing him was probably only in the heads of a few of them and they probably weren’t actively talking and planning yet. Once the wildings were actually behind the wall, they probably got serious.

Yeah, I got the impression that the conspirators had to psych themselves up for the murder. It’s not a small thing to kill the Lord Commander.

@oft_wears_hats

I disagree with this. Yes, Shireen was definitely likable, but I think that was necessary so that we were emotionally invested in her fate, so that we engaged with the character. If she had been like Joffrey, we’d have been rooting for her to be sacrificed. Even if she had been a non-entity, we wouldn’t have felt Stannis’ conflict as acutely, or hated him for what he did as strongly. I don’t see it as emotional manipulation so much as good story telling. Shireen was well developed so we would care when she was sacrificed. . . .

I agree - Stannis’s story was a classic tragedy that really worked for me. I never completely rooted for him, but I understood and admired his motives, even when his actions were awful. By underlining his devotion to Shireen, and having her offer to help in any way she can, it really heightened the emotion, and when Stannis was totally and utterly defeated, I felt both empathy for him and grim satisfaction. YMMV.

Now, here are my arguments for Jon Snow coming back:
[ul]
[li]Melisandre’s arrival at castle black, after the show established her god can resurrect people[/li][li]Additionally, we have well established warging in this universe - perhaps his mind will get stored in Ghost for a while[/li][li]Jon dying now doesn’t create a grim-but-earned narrative arc so much as a truncated, pointless story. Martin may like a sucker punch, but he does try to deliver satisfying storytelling at the same time. [/li][li]Kit Harrington leaving the show permanently wouldn’t preclude Jon Snow being revivified in some manner - a zombie/warg/Frankenstein’s Jon Snow could be played by another actor or (god help us) a CGI creation or something. Kit or the DDs could just be misleading people as well.[/li][li]The show took a lot of effort to plant many hints at R+L=J, especially this season. There is literally no reason to do this if Jon’s story is over, except if they just wanted to fuck with people who ascribed to the theory. And remember, that would be the DDs fucking with people, not Martin. It just seems implausible to me.[/li][/ul]