She was on an arc of growth, but not redemption. Sansa doesn’t need any redemption.
And in fact, making her less likeable is precisely part of her arc, and I find it very satisfying.
I already said, however, that her hiding vital information (assuming it was supposed to be deliberate rather than Littlefinger arriving just in time) is quite stupid.
Presumably they would normally advance the archers into range so they can fire at Ramsay’s archers and at his infantry before they started to advance. Davos use of his archers makes no sense, they were useless as you point out.
Apologies for this, but it’s a pet peeve of mine and this thread is killing me…
The past tense (and past participle) of “lead” is “led.”
Yeah… They could have just written him to go back to his columns and order the charge in a rage, against the better advice of Ser Davos. At least it would have made him not to look like a complete idiot.
Indeed. I thought of this theory that was discussed here when I heard this statement.
Apparently not. According to the showmakers, he was really unaware that Ramsay was such a piece of shit (which I found very out of character for Littlefinger, but whatever), so he was sincere when he told her that this marriage was in her best short-term interest (“close your eyes and think of Winterfell”).
We don’t know that with certainty. Bolton was appointed Warden of the North to replace a traitor, but it doesn’t mean it isn’t hereditary.
I have to say, Kit Harington has brought a pretty great physicality to Jon Snow. A lot of energy there, especially in the battle scene in this episode. The no-cut scene starting at when the charging horses smash together is great, even on rewatching. Wild around the eyes, but still moving smoothly, still watching his angles. And the whole lost-in-the-scrum scene. Great stuff.
I also think he deserves a little slack on the whole “charging into the teeth of the enemy” thing. Frankly, Davos deserves a good part of the blame. Yes, Jon should absolutely have taken his brother’s body up on his horse and ridden back for his own lines.
But at the point where he rides off, Davos has already begun shouting for his men to “prepare to charge.” And the moment when Jon rides off is about two seconds before Bolton archers riddle the spot where he was standing with arrows. And, yeah, Jon was their commander. But that’s why there are second-in-commands; sometimes the CO loses his head.
I mean, look at his face when he’s readying to face his death in front of the cavalry charge. He sure as shit wasn’t expecting the counter-charge coming up behind him. And for a second he teams up with another friendly soldier to dispatch an enemy soldier, then he grabs him and starts shouting “Get word to–” before the guy catches an arrow in the eye. And after that it’s the scrum.
Maybe I’m just in a forgiving mood, but they could save a lot of credit with me in the next episode if Jon just says to Davos something along the lines of “I should be dead out there, you should have left me for dead. (I mean, I’d have come back, anyway, if we won. But thanks for coming for me in my moment of idiocy and jeapordizing our army on behalf of a man who can come back from the bloody dead.)”
On a different note, if Sansa works out as cynical we’ll have an Ice Queen, a Fire Queen (Dany) and a Water Queen (Yara). That leaves only the elements of Earth (Margaery “Breadbasket” Tyrell?) and Surprise. (The Hound?)
In a way I agree with you; Ramsey Bolton was a fantastic villain. But he got exactly what he deserved at the end. Theres even an interview with Iwan Rheon who said he loved playing the character, but even he couldn’t wait for Bolton to brought to justice by the writers!
(Also, I rewatched the Bolton Beatdown scene and counted 23 punches to the face.)
It’s been a plot point a few times. Roose Bolton had to smuggle himself back to Winterfell because he couldn’t pass Moat Cailin with his armies when they were held by the ironborn.
The dragons are much more vulnerable on the ground than in the air. Lack of anti-dragon weapons is a little questionable, I guess, but I think that if they had anticipated a full on dragon defense, they wouldn’t have mounted the assault. They thought Drogon and Dany were gone, and her other dragons were locked up. They probably had spies that reported to them that the dragons were still in the dungeons - which is correct, since they didn’t bother to break out until the fight, when apparently they could’ve at any time.
The Hound in a fetching embroidered number? That would be surprising.
I don’t buy the Sansa as ice-cold strategist theory, although I’d like to. Basically she has no reason not to share this info with Jon. Had she said: “The Knights of the Vale are here, Ramsay clearly doesn’t know or he wouldn’t be a) bragging about how he outnumbers us or b) leaving Winterfell. You need to get him to commit his forces so the Knights can charge and destroy them” then there could have been a conversation about ways to achieve that which don’t involve the near-total destruction of the forces Jon needs to fight the White Walkers.
Hoping that Jon and Davos will work together to expose their army, so that it can be nearly destroyed, is not ice-cold planning. Ice-cold planning is saying “He’ll try to provoke you to charging into the open. You need a plan to appear to do that to draw his charge while minimising casualties.”
But the biggest reason she’s not a strategic genius is that the cavalry do **not **show up at the last minute. They show up late. The time for the cavalry to show up was as soon as the shield wall was in place. Instead there was a prolonged period of slaughter that nearly cost Jon his life and did cost the North thousands of soldiers. (And, you know, human lives but let’s not get mushy here.). A co-ordinated plan whereby Jon didn’t charge until he received confirmation that the Vale were in place seems like a much better idea.
Hopefully Jon and Sansa will have a conversation next episode that addresses all of this, but it’s hard to see how such a conversation wouldn’t poison their relationship: “Why couldn’t you tell me about the Knights?” “I needed you to do something painfully stupid so that you’d lose most of your army. And you did, so thanks.”
So, yeah, the idea that a couple of thousand knights of the Vale could just jump out from nothing is a bit of a stretch—I mean, were they hiding in the shrubbery? But it’s something I’m prepared to forgive (fog of war and all that).
And I don’t think you can call their appearance a deus ex machina—after all, it’s been established that their coming was an option, and one that Sansa had chosen to realize. Their timing is convenient, but there’s something to all stories that I think helps explain this—in the end, we only hear stories where there is some measure of success to the heroes (or alternatively, tragic failures). If Jon Snow’s forces were just crushed at Winterfell, and that’s that, then nobody would bother to tell that story—just as nobody bothers to tell the story of the knight set out to slay the dragon, who then succumbs to dysentery along the journey. The story is worth telling because of the unlikely rescue.
That said, it might have been more satisfying if some northern house had chosen to turn on the Boltons—but I can also see the reasoning behind that not happening: there was a lengthy arc devoted to showing the rift between Starks and Karstarks, starting with Jaime killing the Karstark son, then Catelyn setting him free, Lord Karstark killing the Lannister cousins, and Robb executing him. All of which are points that, even if one might disagree with the actions, have some well-fleshed out motivation behind them; having the Karstarks now turn tail would have negated all of that development.
House Umber is a bit more difficult, but still, after all, Robb has effectively gambled away the north because he chose to break his oath to marry a Frey daughter, leading to great loss of life; also, Last Hearth is the northernmost keep (aside from those of the Watch), and thus, likely to view the act of bringing wildlings across the wall an act of treason—they’ve had to defend against wildlings for centuries. And note that the Umbers don’t swear fealty to the Boltons, but ask for aid against the wildlings; so in their view, Jon and his forces are essentially something like a King beyond the wall leading his forces south, not the House Stark they owe fealty to. (Also, the lands that Jon promised the wildlings—are they part of Umber territory?)
From this point of view, it doesn’t strike me as unlikely that they’d rather fight alongside the Boltons than switch sides. And I think that most of the lesser houses will simply not dare to act against Ramsay—which is known to have some unpleasant circumstances.
As for whether the whole thing was a stratagem by Sansa, I’m on the fence—I would really like it to be true, but the show doesn’t exactly like to give me what I’d like to have, it seems. Jon’s actions, I think, were well in line with his characterization—he does know nothing, after all. And re other characters who acted that foolhardy getting their comeuppance, if the idea of Sansa (or Littlefinger) counting on Jon’s foolhardyness was right, then this would actually be an instance where people learned from this—anticipating what would otherwise have been a lethal defeat for the Stark forces due to Jon’s lack of acumen, they turned it into victory instead.
I’m not greatly bothered by the fact that, had Wun Wun not lived, Ramsay could have holed up in Winterfell—after all, at this point, he has like fifty men, tops, and there’s an army outside the walls; time, if nothing else, would have meant victory in the end.
So, all in all, I think this was a much more satisfying episode than the last one—not just because Ramsay finally got what was coming his way (but that does play a role, I’ll freely admit).
How come Wun-Wun didn’t have a weapon? He could have done a lot more damage using a big tree trunk to sweep away infantry like a scythe. Yes, twisting them in half is very satisfying, but it doesn’t really exploit his great size to any advantage.
Especially since we’ve seen him effectively wield a log before. I’m sure the reason we didn’t see him have a club is that it would have made breaking the shield wall too easy.
The Gift belongs to the Night’s Watch and I guess it’s pretty much uninhabited since the Wildling raid on Mole’s Town, but it borders the Umber lands.
Thinking about it there was no real reason he had to bash down the gate, either. Since the Bolton army in the field is destroyed, construct some basic siege equipment like ladders and a ram, bash down the gate, storm the walls, keep the BFG alive. Have these people never played Medieval II?!
Littlefinger first took his Army to Mole’s Town near the Wall. I see no reason they wouldn’t have taken a sea route to get there. So the Moat Cailin issue is a red herring. Still, plenty of time for a Bolton ally to send a raven, but did he have allies in the east? I imagine his forces were concentrated at Winterfell, not spread throughout the North. He hadn’t much time to get a real grip on the North, this battle was supposed to increase his influence, but he failed.
Remember what Littlefinger claimed had happend to Sansa when he talked to Robyn? Sansa had been kidnapped by the Boltons! She is his raison d’être for war, and her family ties to Robyn make it hard for any opposition to speak out against such a course of action.
Sansa’s prominent placement at Winterfell was crucial for Littlefinger’s plan, he just had not realised what this meant for her.
I don’t think the show wants us to think that Jon is a shitty military leader - but that’s what they have shown us here.
In contrast to some, I think he did well at the Wall against the Wilding army and at Hardhome: both fights were not winnable, yet he fought on relentlessly and managed to open a window of opportunity each time.
One might say that it was the same in front of Winterfell, but in contrast to the earlier fights, this one he chose. And he chose poorly, prior to the engagement and in the thick of it.
We agree that they could have shown a similar outcome without making Jon look terrible. I am not sure whether it was intentional or another miscommunication.
It was in Littlefinger’s interest to show up as late as they did; and Sansa might not have realised what it meant for Jon’s army to face a better equipped, disciplined and much greater force - it’s not her field of expertise, after all.
Yet, her silence gives us reason to consider her far less innocent than a militarily inexperienced young woman might appear. She didn’t trust Jon, and she was willing to sacrifice him.
Though I don’t quite understand her motive. She has reason to be wary of Littlefinger; a strong northern force should be in her best interest to counter his might.
Unless … she doesn’t want Jon to push her aside and become the leader in the North - in that case, her actions make sense: Littlefinger needs her as Lady of Winterfell, Jon might not … I wonder if Sansa hasn’t learned the wrong lessons from Cercei.
And I wonder if she has not yet understood that the time for a game of thrones has come and gone - Jon knows it, and I hope they are going to show us the scene when Littlefinger is made aware of the icy monkey wrench in his plans… and the fiery one.
This is one of the arcs the show did well: show us that the Northern Houses, who suffered from the War of the Five Kings, have little reason to support the Starks’ restitution.
If Jon wasn’t so obviously chosen, they’d even have been right to rather support Ramsay.
I’m pretty sure Sansa didn’t think they were going to have a tickle fight.