Game of Thrones 6.09 "Battle of the Bastards" 6/19/16 [Show discussion]

Cafe Society
281

The first is just a young teenager wooed by prince charming’s petty fault. After all the sordid crimes we have seen in the show, this requires redemption???:confused:

The second even less so : she did what she thought was best, IIRC, in her then still airy little head.

How old was she supposed to be back then, already? 13?15?

No, I don’t see any need for redemption, here, even if she hadn’t meanwhile gone through all these fears, humiliations and pains. After all that, she has been redeemed tenfold. We’re not talking about an adult who threw a little boy out of a window or strangled his admiring cousin with his own hands, are we?

282

My apologies - I got the two confused and was mistaken.

The whole lying and not defending Arya about the fight around the river and the butcher’s boy was also bad. Writing the letter to Robb after Ned’s death was not as bad, but still bad. Not pushing Joffrey off of the wall was not as bad either, but a missed opportunity. I just really didn’t like Season 1 Sansa and thought her character was becoming much better. The whole withholding information thing is something that belongs on a show like Lost.

283

That would make more sense, but the entire northeastern side of the North is held by the Boltons and their allies: The Umbers at the Last Hearth just south of the Gift, the Karstarks at Karhold, and the Bolton’s own Dreadfort. They could have landed at the eastern end of the Gift but then the Night’s Watch at Eastwatch would have known about them. One would expect Lord Commander Edd to let Jon know.

Right. (Of course, that required Littlefinger to have almost magical teleportation powers himself to make such an enormous round trip. The trip itself would have required weeks if not months.)

Ramsay knew he had betrayed both the Lannisters (by marrying Sansa) and the Freys (by killing Walda). Now he might not know if they had found out yet, but unless he was a complete idiot he should have been on the lookout for an invading force coming from the south. And Ramsay wasn’t an idiot. His leaving Moat Cailin unguarded would be implausible in itself, since he personally knows of its strategic importance.

284

I agree that it would have been nice to see the northern houses betray the Boltons, just as the Boltons had betrayed the Starks. But I think that development was off the table once it was confirmed that the Umbers had turned Rickon over to Ramsay for real, and not as a ploy (and especially after Rickon was killed). Even if they flipped back again, Jon would never forgive them for causing the death of his brother.

285

My wife and I watched this episode last night and something occurred to me: only the old gods and the new god of fire seem definitely exist; Jon’s resurrection and Bran’s experiences would make it pretty clear that there is some real power there, but the 7 Gods worshiped in the south have never really manifested themselves and might just be a creation of the state. Also, as the old gods and the god of fire exert more power, magic seems to be returning. It’s probably something lots of other people had noticed, but last night it dawned on me.

286

The simple fanwank about the dragons not being harmed by the fleet is that dragons have very heavy chest plating that arrows can’t punch through. You could probably shoot through their wings, but a dragon’s wings are so large compared to an arrow that it just doesn’t do much.

On the ground, they are exposing vulnerable bits, can’t manoever, and are also exposed to heavier weapons. But in the air I think dragons are really only vulnerable to other dragons. Has there ever been a story told on the show about any dragon being taken down by ground forces?

Also, shock and awe. It’s one thing to hear about dragons maybe existing again, it’s another to see a huge lizard thing belching fire and toasting your friends. The show depicted the sailors as basically being frozen by fear and wonder. And of course, who wants to be the first one to shoot an arrow and get barbecued for the effort? Absent a coordinated battle plan, it’s not surprising that the dragons would be untouched.

The show does make production errors showing distance, though. In the case of the Dragons, maybe they were supposed to be out of arrow range, but the show’s production didn’t get it right, or thought close-in would be more spectacular. The same was true for Ramsay’s bow skills - The way the show portrayed it, Rickon was perhaps 500 yards from Ramsay when Ramsay killed him. He ran at full speed for a LONG time before Ramsay got him. And after he was killed, Jon was shown to be a very long distance from Ramsay still while he was next to Rickon’s body. That would be extreme range for any arrow, and hitting anything from that far away would involve a lot of luck. The slightest breeze would move an arrow far enough for a miss.

Anyway, aside from whatever quibbles about the battle and Sansa’s plans we may have, we’re now at a pretty satisfying place, plot-wise. A Stark is back in Winterfell. Daeneris is fully in control in Essos and has plenty of ships and soldiers. A battle is brewing between the Greyjoys. Arya is heading for Westeros. The Hound is alive and has work to do. All these plots that have been separated for years look like they are now being pulled together into a grand conflagration.

It will be very interesting to see how Daeneris handles her invasion of Westeros. For a while it looked like they might be turning her a little evil, but after the last episode I don’t think that flies. They portrayed a very sympathetic scene with her and the Greyjoys, including her admonishment that the pillaging days are over. She reversed course when Tyrion pointed out the immorality of burning her enemy’s cities. So it seems that the show is steadfastly going to portray her as being a good person trying to do right by the common folk.

And yet… How can she land a Dothraki horde in Westeros without killing a whole lot of innocent people? There’s no slavery there, so what will her reign as queen do for the average person? From the perspective of a peasant, she’s just another player in the Game of Thrones, bringing destruction to the land for her own personal will to power.

There is one way that could be resolved, though - she could be diverted from her goal of the Iron Throne by the threat of the White Walkers. Maybe Stannis’s realization that to be King he had to earn it and not just take it was a foreshadowing of Daeneris’s future. She’ll do just what Stannis did - realize that her path to the Iron Throne takes her to the wall, and that only by defeating the walkers will she truly earn the legitimacy needed to rule.

One interesting through about her deal with the Greyjoys to have them stop pillaging - what else are they supposed to do? The whole Iron Islands culture remains a mystery. They must have farmers and an economy big enough to allow for the construction of huge fleets of warships. They must have forests large enough to be able to harvest that much wood. And yet, the picture we’ve always been given of them is that of essentially vikings - people that live in regions of low productivity and few natural resources, who survive through pillaging and ransacking wealthy neighbors. But then again, the vikings also farmed and fished and did traditional economic activities. It’s just strange that we’ve never really seen any of it, other than perhaps during Theon’s first horse ride home.

287

I noticed that as well. That definitely felt like intentional exposition to me. It could be that Cersei is going to go wild for wildfire in the next episode to end the season with a bang. Though I can’t see her doing that while Tommen is alive.

This. Littlefinger doesn’t know about the White Walkers yet, but I bet Jon’s going to tell him in the next episode. If he doesn’t believe it, he’ll try to exploit people’s fears about them. If he does believe it, he’ll try to exploit the chaos they bring. Either way, he’ll be looking out for himself. Jon’s plan to resist the White Walkers is unlikely to survive Littlefinger’s interference.

It wouldn’t surprise me at all if the series culminates in the ultimate victory being snatched away by Littlefinger’s machinations. Perhaps he really does get to be king of the ashes.

Events in GoT seem to be moving in a “screw the monarchy” direction. Common people from King’s Landing to The North are getting fed up with leaders constantly letting them down. After what that one lord said to Sansa, I wonder if The North will even rally for a Stark, or anyone else. They may just decide “hey, thanks for getting rid of those asshole Boltons, but I think we’re good on our own.”

288

The Greyjoys themselves are pure raiders/battle commanders. Their words are “We Do Not Sow.”

Presumably at least some of their bannermen have more traditional roles.

So yeah, Dany is invading with at 3 different raid and pillage cultures. One of which is also really big on rape and slavery. Those groups probably make up, what, 80-90% of her military? I get that the dragons are impressive, but I think that luster would wear off a bit after conquest and they’re just hanging out and not doing anything their cultures are based around.

289

I’ve said this before, but what’s been proved is that the supernatural exists, not that any particular gods are real. And many other groups have been shown to have supernatural powers of one sort or another: The Faceless Men, the Warlocks of Qarth, the Lazhareen Witch, Cersei’s woods witch, maybe the Alchemists League. People just interpret the supernatural as manifestations of their own particular gods. (I do think it’s interesting, however, that the one belief group that has not shown any capacity to connect with the supernatural is the Faith of the Seven.)

The supernatural has been getting stronger in the world for unexplained reasons, from the birth of dragons to the re-emergence of the White Walkers. The fact that the Lord of Light and the Old Gods appear to have more power is the result of this, not the cause.

290

I think Tommen is toast (literally). Cersei, GoT’s very own version of Wile E. Coyote, will attempt to destroy the Sept of Baylor and the Sparrows by blowing up the wildfire cache underneath it and Tommen will unintentionally go up with them. Margaery and/or Loras may also be casualties.

291

Tyrion used up at least some of that Wildfire at Blackwater. Not sure if he found/used all of it - probably not the batch under the Sept :smiley:

292

True, although there does seem to be direct supernatural link to the Gods’ Woods, Bran essentially travels through time through them and the three eyed raven lives in the roots of one.

293

You’re a braver person than I am if you’d believe something like bringing you back from the dead was a certainty for someone who doesn’t know what she did or why you came back in the first place. I’d be a bit less cavalier about it than you’d have Jon be.

You don’t take the gifts of the Gods lightly.

294

The usual practice if a line is extinct, like the Boltons are now, or in rebellion, like the Starks, would be for the Crown or the regional ruler to appoint a new, loyal house to take over the castle. Certainly someone could try to take over, but they wouldn’t be recognized as a “rightful leader” by anyone.

The garrison would have sworn fealty to the Boltons. Since the Boltons are gone, they don’t have any further obligation to continue to hold the castle. They would probably only hold out if they felt that they would be executed if they surrendered.

The most likely thing is for them to just go over to the most powerful current force in the region, which now is the Littlefinger/Sansa/Jon Snow alliance. They could go over to someone opposing them, but there would seem to be no one left in the North who would lead such opposition.

295

Certainly the religion of the Old Gods has a strong connection to the supernatural, but it doesn’t mean that the gods themselves actually exist as real entities. Likewise, invoking the Lord of Light can raise the dead, but that doesn’t mean he’s real. (The Children and their creations the White Walkers can also raise the dead in a fashion.) The Faceless Men recognize that all religions are talking about aspects of the same thing with their Many-faced God, but it extends to all aspects of the supernatural, not just death.

296

I tend to lurk in these threads, enjoying everyone’s posts and getting the subtleties pointed out so I can be ready for another viewing of the episode :wink:

Two quick points:

  • Jon Snow’s luck in battle: I found it a bit of a stretch, but that was a factor that the showrunners commented on in their bit at the end of the episode. There can be a storm of arrows raining down and a person can get lucky. There was a bunch of luck going on in the hand-to-hand as well, as attackers got taken out at the last minute, or someone Jon congratulated is cut down the next instant.

  • The politics of Dragons: per the post I quoted, dragons as weapons change things. There is a podcast I listen to occasionally, Imaginary Worlds. It has an episode I will link to here which discusses the modern-day equivalence between dragons and nuclear weapons. Interesting stuff. http://www.imaginaryworldspodcast.org/politics-of-thrones.html

297

They make a point of illustrating that the Wildlings (of which the giants are a subset) may be great fighters, but they’re shit at every other aspect of civilization. They don’t farm, domesticate animals, wear armor, build castles (or even houses), they don’t fight in organized battalions or divisions, and until recently didn’t even follow leaders. I suspect Wun-Wun successfully lived and fought his many years without a shield or sword, and saw no need for one now.

In my opinion, this is the reason for her withholding the info. Littlefinger is not trustworthy to anyone, least of all Sansa. She simply decided (probably as late as the parley with Ramsay) that there was no other option. Trust Littlefinger and maybe die, or continue to refuse his support and certainly die. So she sent word to him, assuming that he ignored her instructions to stay away from her, and he came in the nick of time. I was half expecting him to back Ramsay once he showed up, because he has a habit of supporting whoever currently seems to be winning.

But maybe a little part of him does care for Sansa, and he doesn’t only care for himself. Which at this point is something of a shocker. Or maybe he just felt Ramsay was standing in his way as Warden of the North, and it was nice of the Starks to draw the Bolton army out into the open for him. But the Stark sigil on Winterfell after the battle was a good sign that it is a true alliance, and not just Littlefinger taking his rightful seat at Winterfell (in which case we’d probably expect the Vale banners instead – or does Lord Baelish have his own sigil now?).

298

He made up his own several seasons ago: the Mockingbird.

We’ve seen it on several communications from Littlefinger. It’s a bit out of place, since Mockingbirds are exclusively American and don’t occur in England or Europe.

299

Speaking of sigils I hope they remember to put the Stark wolf’s head back on Winterfell in the intro with the flayed man of the now extinct Boltons smashed next to it.

300

But a very apt sigil for Petyr Baelish. Of course if he throws up a three finger salute then we know the jig is up and he’s really going to be the winner ;).