The Riverlands were not officially a kingdom and were subservient to the Iron Islands. Harrenhal (in the Riverlands) was built by Harren the Black who was the King of the Iron Islands. The Tullys were lesser lords and vassals to the Iron Islands, and when Aegon the Conqueror showed up; the Tullys allied themselves with him and his sisters. In turn, the Tullys were rewarded as becoming a major house of the Riverlands, a new Kingdom. The Iron Islands are no longer considered a Kingdom since they have no natural resources and are relatively small. I don’t think the Greyjoys are anyone’s vassals so they are part of the Seven Kingdoms but not one of them.
So the Targaryens split the Iron Islands? I guess the Greyjoys were as unpopular then as they are now.
It’s noteworthy that Aegon failed to conquer Dorne. They were sovereign for 200 years of Targaryens, and then only brought into the kingdoms via marriage.
Thanks! That was quite enlightening. I liked explanation #1: A wobbly planetary tilt best.
However, I have heard that Mr. Martin has actually just come out and said, “It’s magic”. I have no cite.
They couldn’t just melt all their castles with dragonfire?
Yeah, that never made much sense to me either. The Targaryens didn’t have much of an army, but they had dragons big enough to swallow horses and melt entire armies in minutes. No one should’ve been able to stand against them.
Don’t forget the Rhoynar. The Valyrians conquered the people of the Rhoyne River culture and Nymeria gathered as many people as she could – I think the majority were women – and fled to Dorne.
And prior to the first men, there were the Children if the Forest, which sound like some kind of elf-like race.
I think this is incorrect. The Riverlands did not get the Iron Islands’ kingdom status. I don’t have a reference at hand from the book, but from the TV show I distinctly remember when Robert was explaining to Ser Barristan about “making the right” that he spoke of the “seven kingdoms and the Riverlands.”
“making the eight” of course is what I meant.
I looked it up on Wikipedia and you’re right. As far as wealth and status, the Tullys and the Riverlands are treated as a Kingdom even if they’re not perceived to be one. The lack of defined, defensible borders is it’s limiting factor.
You’d have thought that the Soviets could have conquered Afghanistan too.
Dorne didn’t sit in castles and fight. They took to the mountains and the desserts and fought an asymmetric war. They bled the Targaryens dry in small battles, not sieges.
I saw him speak at Worldcon last year, and that was my take-away. He scoffed at the idea of a scientific explanation for the seasons and said it was magic.
Iron Islands ruling the Riverlands has been covered, but I have some follow-up questions.
Was Harren the Black related to the Greyjoys? If not, how did the Greyjoys become the power house in the Iron Islands?
The Tyrells are a seen as a lower house who have been raised up recently. Who was the power house in the Reach before the Conquest? I feel like I should know this one, but can’t remember. I know the Florents are another power house in the reach. Maybe the Florents are a Stormlands house? Not sure… which leads to my next question.
What is the relationship between the Stormlands and the Reach, anyway? It seems like the Reach major houses are expected to serve the Baratheons whenever they choose to go to war.
Oldtown is considered part of the reach, right? Did the Hightowers used to be a major house? They seem to come up a lot, but they are quite isolated way down there.
This is the only answer I have off the top of my head. The Florents are a Reach house–but Stannis’ wife was a Florent, and one of his disposable Hands was, as well. I don’t think the Reach families are obligated to follow the Baratheons, I just think it’s been convenient for them.
They are not related. Harren Hoare and his sons were wiped out at Harrenhal and the Greyjoys were chosen to lead the Iron men, and they wisely chose to submit to the Targaryens.
The Gardeners or Highgarden were the kings of the Reach, the Targaryens fried them during their conquest. The Tyrells were their stewards and they wisely chose to bend the knee. The Florents were the second strongest house, they felt they should’ve been the rightful rulers after the Gardeners.
No relation, they are two different kingdoms.
They are one of the major houses of the reach and Tyrell bannermen.
Bumping an old thread full of good, still relevant posts (as we haven’t gotten a new novel yet) because I am finishing a re-read.
Having read them several times I found myself now catching small little details a lot, things I overlooked in previous reads. I spent most of my reading with my phone open beside me searching “asoiaf ______” and finding out whatever esoteric term I put in spit out dozens of theories other people came up with.
For example, I never paid much attention to Lady Dustin before, but I think she’s going to be a big factor in TWOW. I don’t know if that’s a good thing or not. It’ll make for great reading, but I can’t say for sure I’m rooting for her. She hates the Starks, but probably hates the Boltons more. She knows about the crypts and Jeyne/Arya.
I have read hundreds of theories and speculation on the series, but some of them just felt too tinfoil for me, but as I read this time, I saw what they meant. The Southron Ambitions and Maester conspiracies were two examples. Southron Ambitions basically is that the non-Targs were conspiring together, probably to overthrow Aerys. I didn’t disbelieve it, but didn’t feel that the text was strong enough for me to become a believer. But reading it, it kept hitting me in the face. Dustin comes into it (and Maesters too) but other things. Like Jaime was talking about how Tywin had sent him to Riverrun to meet Lysa. Why? Lannisters usually married cousins. Or bannermen. Or for money or power. It’s not so unusual it would have raised Aerys’s suspicion, but as a reader with the idea in my head, it was strange. Why were Ned and Robert fostered with Jon Arryn? Robb wasn’t sent off and Theon was a hostage. Every time I read something that made me say “Hmm, now why did they do that?” I would search for it and find out yeah, that was something other people noticed.
The Maester Conspiracy is that they’re anti magic and trying to take anything magical out, including pushing the Southron Ambitions plot to take out the Targs. I also hadn’t thought much about that because we mostly saw Luwin and Aemon, two fantastic maesters. And Pycelle is out for himself. But just passing references here and there that I noticed this time on my reread make it seem likely that they’re pulling a lot more strings than I had realized.
The Dunk and Egg stories really intrigue me. I think in them and to a lesser extent the three Targ short stories there is a lot of foreshadowing and hints, but because the last two novels haven’t come out we can’t say for sure. The battle of the 7 in The Hedge Knight can’t have just been in there for funsies. Is that what will happen for Cersei or Margaery?
I guess I’m just happy that a series I’ve read a bunch still offers me surprises and something to think about, even if some of it is just tinfoil.
Oh and one last thing I believe: Jon Snow is named for Jon Connington at least in part and not Jon Arryn alone. Rhaegar picked the name, not Ned.
You should watch some of Preston Jacob’s videos. Hugely detailed analysis and speculation about the books with epic snark about the show. He has a theory about Lady Dustins role.
I love Preston videos but sometimes he just gets wrapped up in some weird circles.
“Robyn said the ‘moon flew’ …but moons don’t fly… could he have meant “flue” and could this be a reference to the moon door being like a reverse chimney?”
I just shake my head…
Absolutely, but he’s very entertaining as he does so. Perhaps that’s the half of it he’s wrong about?