Indeed. I’ve big doubts about R’hllor benevolence (assuming he even exists).
I’m not sure there’s only two sides to deal with, too. From what I recall, most every wish or curse asked for from the Seven by a main character ends up occurring, and there’s something going on with the Children/weirwoods.
And I’ve seen speculation that the Faceless God of Braavos is the same as the Stranger of the Seven, so there may be some syncretization going on as well to confuse the issue.
I’m struggling to think of when raising undead is ever not an evil act. I suppose animating skeletons can be neutral in Dn’D, but creating murderous undead, like the ice wights are, strikes me as a big “We are evil” flag for the Others.
My theory on the religions of Westeros:
Clearly there are supernatural things going on in the world. Man has found many ways to tap into that power. All of the religions are attempts to explain the supernatural, but we are given no indication that ANY of them are accurate.
If you need to draw analogies to earthly religions, I would say “The Seven” are most analogous to the Catholic church. The gods of the North / weirwoods / Children of the Forest are most similar to Buddhism. And R’hllor is most like Judaism in the Old Testament, with some Satanistic elements mixed in.
I don’t think any of the religions are explicitly good or evil, but they all have their own ideas of what is happening when supernatural powers are invoked and they make guesses about what God is revealing to them.
Keep in mind that Melisandre views Brynden and Bran as the servants of the darkness - the evil one. Clearly Brynden and Bran are not evil (well not clear on Brynden yet I guess) so it is not so black and white as Melisandre thinks.
I am very curious how the Children’s/Weirwood magic is related to the White Walkers. There’s gotta be some serious history there.
I think you’re right about The Seven and Catholicism, but I think the Old Gods of the North are closer to paganism (perhaps Celtic druidism), and R’hllor seems to be to be a lot like Zorastrianism, which also has a fire connection and a great “good” god and a great “evil” god.
I would say “animism” more than “paganism” for the Northern religion. Pagan gods seem a bit more defined, with mytholgies and personalities. Or maybe something more like Shinto, since there don’t appear to be any religious specialists – priests or shamans – in the North, except maybe the greenseers/wargs.
Anyone else think it’d be great if Martin’s subversion of tropes resulted in the Others actually being the good guys?
Guess it all depends on what kind of god(s) you follow.
He has actually hinted at that.
Technically Beric and Lady Stoneheart may qualify as undead too. Then there’s the whole shadow assassin thing. Not saying there’s no difference between the two sides but it’s not so clearcut.
Melisandre also studied magic under the maegi that taught Mirri Maz Duur. I’m thinking that some of the stuff she does – including the shadow-baby assassin – isn’t necessarily “from R’hllor”. The stuff that Thoros of Myr does with Beric and Lady Stoneheart is probably what we should identify as wholly from R’hllor.
In interviews? or in the books somewhere?
Interviews. Sorry i would look it up but it is only a vague recollection.
No worries; was just curious.
Do you think that there is a chance that Aerys turns out to be the father of one of the Lannister children?
Yes, there is some heavy-handed hinting in book 5 that Aerys was into Tywin’s wife (Joanna?) and you could easily speculate that this is related to some of the bad blood between Tywin and Aerys. (Tywin fired as hand of the king – hmm I guess ‘fired’ is a bad choice of words since it was Aerys, Rhaegar betrothed to Elia of Dorne rather than Cersei, Tywin ticked off about Jaime joining the Kingsguard, and finally Tywin’s betrayal of the king after pretending to come to the rescue at King’s Landing)
One could further speculate that Aerys, being the king, could pull a TV-Joffrey and forcibly take Joanna into his bedroom and no one could say boo. Tyrion could be the result. He does have white-blonde hair and two different color eyes, interestingly enough, making him appear quite different genetically from his brother and sister. (not to mention the dwarfism)
I wonder if Jaime had some inside knowledge about Tywin’s intentions when he came to King’s Landing. Aerys ordered him to go “Bring me your Father’s head!” so I guess it didn’t matter in the end, but it would have been interesting if Jaime betrayed Aerys regardless of which side his father was on. Would have made his choice more honorable.
I don’t see it, if Aerys had forced himself on Tywin’s wife it would be fairly common knowledge. He didn’t exactly keep his excesses on the down low.
I concur strongly with this. Embodying an avatar of a deity as a tree is about as Druidic as it gets. And the idea of Zoroastrianism is excellent as well.
I have a bit of a meta-question here: is there another thread where dopers have discussed the hypotheses as to why there are such variable seasons? We see the Maesters have all concluded that the ‘Long Summer’ is ending. They did this after significant deliberation. What, if any, real planetary system could cause such unpredictable seasons? What did they use to determine this? Astronomical projections? Chicken Entrails?
This isn’t related to book speculation but it doesn’t deserve its own thread and I figured someone here could answer:
Originally there were the first men. Then the Andals came and invaded and eventually settled into seven kingdoms. Then the Targaryens showed up and united them all in one kingdom and the former royal houses of the seven kingdoms became great houses (dukes, basically) in this new umbrella kingdom.
But there are eight great houses, not seven.
The regions controlled by the former kingdoms:
1.) The North (Stark)
2.) The Vale (Arryn)
3.) The Westerlands (Lannister)
4.) The Stormlands (Baratheon)
5.) The Iron Islands (Greyjoy)
6.) The Riverlands (Tully)
7.) The Reach (Tyrell)
8.) Dorne (Martell)
Shouldn’t it be called the eight kingdoms? Or was one of these not part of a kingdom before the Targaryens showed up?
The riverlands were not a kingdom, they were owned by the ironmen.