Perhaps the Iron Bank has notes of credit they can send by raven, with seals that are difficult to counterfeit. We know they provide some manner of credit, since the Lannisters are indebted to them.
I haven’t read the books so I don’t know if that is how Stannis was presented there, but that motivation doesn’t really come across in the TV show. And Stannis was driven to commit heinous offenses such as murdering his own brother and burning his father-in-law alive long before he was aware of the threat of the White Walkers. He certainly wasn’t trying to save the world at all costs back then, but just take the Iron Throne for himself.
Unless I am being whooshed and this is some over-the-top parody of what Stannis’s motivations might be.
Renly deserved to die. He waged war against his older brother and rightful king. More honorable to assassinate one person than kill thousands in battle.
Stannis’s introduction is about him being the chosen one that’ll save the world.
No, you’re right. He burned her to defeat the Boltons didn’t he? NOT to defeat the White Walkers.
Now maybe he’s playing it ultimately to unite Westeros to face the WW’s.
But also one has to consider “In a world that you have to burn your daughter alive…is that world worth saving?”…I say no. **** that world. And besides there are other worlds beyond this one.
And I don’t know that we’ve proven the Wights are your loved ones condemned to undeath.
Stannis was in dire straits. It wasn’t just “burn her and win the battle, not burn her and lose the battle”, it was “burn her and win the battle, not burn her and you and every person in your army will starve to death and die”. At least, from his perspective.
I think it was made quite clear how desperate he was, and how desperate he had to be before he gave in to Melisandre.
No, Mr. Beef and Max are right about Stannis. He was doing what he thought was right, and it tore him up terribly that he had to do it. But it was a completely necessary duty (in his mind). All very clear from the show without any need for the books.
I get it. I see that point of view.
My take would have been if i have to burn my daughter to get “Gods” to stop a damn snowstorm then let the world burn.
I’ll ask very nicely, make a shitton of promises and start marching back to Castle Black. Should the storm break, great. If not…what makes it to Castle Black can get involved in Jon Snows storyline!
Maybe “The King who took the Black to save the world” Will give Shireen…enhhh who am I kidding. A girl with Greyscale would never be accepted as ruler.
Yeah…Stannis was in a pickle.
Couldn’t disagree more. One of the show’s hallmarks has been that characters that seemed pivotal, that seemed to be building towards some kind of “chosen one” finale, have been unceremoniously killed off.
I see no issue at all with the story proceeding with initially no-one able to pick up Jon’s reins. Note that in terms of “dealing with” the white walkers, we still have at least 2 1/2 series to go according to the writers, and HBO are implying even that’s not the end of the road.
The reason most people don’t think Jon Snow is dead is 99% because it’s been impossible to avoid the promotional material, sightings etc, and (generously) 1% because of clues in the show.
But still…: https://tyrionlannister.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/stannis-is-the-number-one-dad-on-fathers-day-meme.jpg
Not really. The only major ones were Robb and Catelyn Stark, and they were not necessary for carrying the Stark story forward. (Ned Stark’s execution was necessary for setting much of the plot in motion.) Most of the characters involved in the War of the Five Kings storyline are not essential to carrying the plot forward, because there are so many of them that none are indispensable. It’s the characters who are involved in peripheral plots, and who are the only ones really carrying them forward, that can’t be eliminated without making those whole long plot lines pointless. Those include Jon Snow, Daenerys, Arya, and Bran. Tyrion is unlikely to be eliminated since he’s so pivotal, but even he’s not essential the same way those four are. I don’t really think there are any others with Plot Armor.
On initially viewing the finale, I assumed that Sansa and Theon had committed suicide by jumping from the wall. I saw later in the synopsis that they were escaping by jumping into deep snow. But it would have been possible for them to die at that point, because neither are really essential to the plot any more. Having them die together at Winterfell in that way would have been both poignant and ironic, and dramatically justifiable. (However, considering all their buildup it’s more likely that they will be involved in some manner in the Bolton’s downfall, although perhaps in some unexpected way.)
It’s not whether a character is important, or likable, or popular that makes them indispensable, it’s whether anyone else can plausibly carry their plotline forward. I don’t see anyone else capable of replacing Jon Snow in the White Walkers plotline. (Jon is not indispensable in the Stark plotline, however.)
Jon Snow is 110% dead.
That’s not to say of course he can’t come back.
It’s established just in the show, and it was there from the beginning. Melissandre was feeding him “you’re god’s chosen warrior, only you can save us from the white walker threat” from the beginning. There was a point late in season 3 or season 4 where he realized the urgency and changed his plans to go north. But from the beginning, he was operating under the belief that he needed to take his rightful place as king in order to face down the white walkers.
The most relevant scene in as far as his motivations are concerned is when he’s arguing with Davos, when Davis is jailed, about sacrificing Gendry. “What’s one boy against the fate of a kingdom?” Stannis ultimately relents and demands proof from Melissandre, and that’s when the dick leeches come out, but shortly after that Robb Stark and Joffrey are dead, and he’s convinced. Shortly before that conversation he also started seeing the visions in the fire for himself. She’s been prophetic, demonstrating real magic powers, and she’s been telling him he’s the only one that can save anyone. He later comes to intend to actually sacrifice Gendry but Davos helps him escape. It’s clear he doesn’t want to do it, that his conscience is eating at him about it, but that he feels it’s necessary for the greater good.
As far as his driving motivation being duty, I can’t point to one single conversation offhand. It comes up over and over again. He never relishes the prospect of becoming king. To him, he already IS the king, and it’s his duty to unite and lead the kingdoms against the threat. It’s just a matter of fact to him. It’s his duty. The weight of the world rests on his shoulders.
I don’t think there’s any case for argument here on the other side. His character is very firmly established in this way. The only disagreements, I think, stem from not paying enough attention/remembering everything, or just trying to understand characters from a “what would I do in his situation” perspective.
Well when I say “chosen one” I’m including characters like Khal Drogo and Stannis who explicitly had prophecies that they would play a part in the endgame. In other series such prophecies are usually right.
Clearly the show doesn’t care about building characters up for such a part then hacking them down. That was the point I was making there.
I don’t see how this is the case. Lots of people know about dragon glass now, and that beardy guy can lead the wildlings. Yeah there may well be fighting between the wildlings and the night’s watch in the short term, but so what? We still have plenty of time for that to resolve one way or another and everyone to turn their attention to the white walkers.
Or indeed something more surprising could happen. You’re saying Ned had to die to kick off an interesting series of events (in retrospect), why can’t the same be true of Jon?
Obviously I strongly suspect, like everyone else, Jon is coming back, but I don’t see how it’s so reasonable to conclude that purely from events in the show.
I’d add Little Finger as well. He is the straw that stirs the drink, the wizard behind the curtain, etc. His actions are directly responsible for almost all of the important actions of the others in the GOT world. He plays them all, even the most powerful, like pawns. Except Daenerys.
Can someone remind me if there was ever any explanation given on how Melisandre hooked up with Stannis? If I recall, she was already at Dragonstone when we are first introduced to Stannis, I think in Season 2.
Stannis’ wife was the one who brought Melisandre to Dragonstone - she was the true believer; Stannis was always relatively skeptical.
Don’t know where his wife picked up her faith in the Red God, though.
Did Stannis’ wife’s beliefs have something to do with the scars on the daughter? Did the wife believe the red god was responsible, or could cure the scarring?
Regarding succession - if something were to happen to Tommen now, wouldn’t Margeary sit on the throne? After her, Cersei would probably have the strongest claim as the former Queen Regent. Either one would be able to defend their claim backed by the power of their houses.
Stannis frequently said “I will not be a footnote in someone else’s history book.” I agree that he was a dutiful person. He certainly seemed to have accepted that he was the chosen person to save the seven kingdoms, but he very much wanted to be king. It wasn’t just because he saw himself as the rightful king, or the savior of the realm, he also wanted it. Sure, his desire to sit in the big chair seemed to become secondary as he became more and more trusting in his destiny as the divine savior, but it was definitely a non-trivial factor.
Still, there’s an argument that his desire to be the king would not have been sufficient for him to sacrifice Shireen on its own. Regardless, I do agree that he’s a tragic character. His whole life was about “follow rule A, get result A”, and he followed that path to its end. He played by the rules that he thought would get him the results he wanted, and instead he lost everything. That doesn’t change the fact that what he did to Shireen was monstrous.
Could be. We don’t really know if Westerosi law draws a meaningful distinction between a queen consort (wife of a king) and a queen regnant (ruling in her own right, like Queen Elizabeth II, who, hey, turns 90 today!). Margaery might try to rule if Tommen snuffed it; I’m sure former Queen Regent Cersei would object - quite vehemently.