I don’t think that’s quite right. I think a more accurate description is that characters that fucked up have been killed off even if they appeared to be the “chosen ones”. Ned fucked up, Robb and Catelyn fucked up, even Khal Drogo and Tywin fucked up. Jon on the other hand was doing exactly what he had to in order to face the threat.
I don’t think Tywin fucked up. He just didn’t know that his vengeful younger son would be able to escape and come after him. What aging warlord, reasonably thinking himself secure in the Red Keep, would?
I disagree (I’m really the contrary voice in this thread…)
Ned let his guard down…he publicly revealed what he knew, and implicitly assumed the Lannisters would be honorable (or at least that not everyone at the red keep would turn against him).
Robb…let his guard down. He assumed walder frey would not break guest tradition, and that the worst thing that could happen would be that Walder would ask for disproportionate compensation.
Jon Snow…let his guard down. He thought the night’s watch would honor their vows and serve their leader, even though he had seen first hand the level of mutiny and treachery they can be capable of.
I don’t see how this is qualitatively different. Except in some post hoc way where we’re trying to find a reason that it’s different this time, and he just has to come back.
ETA: Ah, I missed Tywin, but I see Elendil’s Heir covered that for me 
Tywin massively underestimated Tyrion, that is fucking up. And he fucked up again during their conversation.
He certainly mishandled that conversation, I’ll give you that.
I think if Tommen were to die Margaery would immediately discover that she was pregnant. The tricky part would be springing her from the Great Sept’s dungeons, but once that happened her grandmother would ensure she’s by a small army of Tyrell bodyguards (several of whom just happen have blond hair). I don’t think being a widow grants any succession rights (unless you married a close cousin), but it’s already been established that the Queen Mother get’s to be Queen Regent when the monarch’s underage.
How many people will complain that Martin would not have written plot elements that will show up now? More than a few I guess.
If Snow comes back it will take a while, near the end of the season is most likely. That way they can keep people guessing.
I bet he comes back in the first episode, maaaaybe the second. All parties are already gathered at castle black, and that story line is hugely important to the show.
I’ve heard this argument before, but I find it unconvincing. Since when is having a Messiah complex justification for atrocity? Charles Manson also thought he was the Messiah.
Your hypothetical doesn’t match the situation Stannis faced. Would I burn my own child literally to save the world? Well, if you are positing 100% certainty in both directions - do it and the world will 100% be saved, don’t do it and the world will 100% be doomed - we’d have a discussion. I’d still question whether Stannis had the right to make the decision to sacrifice Shireen for her; perhaps that ought have been her choice to make. But at least we’d have an argument.
But in any case, Stannis had nowhere near 100% certainty; we know that for sure because as it turns out, he was wrong. For Stannis, it was “do this monstrous thing and it will maybe save the world, but it will maybe not; don’t do it and the world will maybe be doomed, or maybe will be saved anyway in some other way.” With that level of uncertainty, the only ethical path is to not do the monstrous thing.
I think that Stannis’ character arc was straightforward; he was not an evil man, but he did an evil thing, and his justification was insufficient. Someone whispered in his ear that he was special, that he and he alone was the pivot on which the ENTIRE WORLD TURNED, and his ego was swollen enough that he was convinced it was so. Everything that followed was entirely the result of this acceptance, the product of his pride and ambition.
Stannis believed in Melisandre because he needed her to be right. If she was right, he was a special being, chosen by destiny to save the world; if she was wrong, he was nothing but an ordinary man fumbling around in the snow, just as blind and inconsequential as the rest of them. He needed her to be right to justify all the choices he’d made in the name of her theory, and in the name of his own self-interest. Not wicked, not cruel - but misguided and ethically wrong, and most ASSUREDLY not selfless or noble.
To oversimplify things, God told Stannis to burn Shirene. Sucks for Stannis that God was fucking with him.
When judging the motives of the person committing the action, obviously what they believe to be true is relevant.
The situation is worthy of discussion to you? You’d find merit in murdering 7 billion people to save one?
She did, from his perspective, though not an informed decision. She asked if there was anything she could do, and that she wished she could help him - that was the turning point at which he decided to go through with it.
Quite the contrary. Even if it were a 20% chance that he understood the situation, he would be ethically obligated to sacrifice her. One life is trivial compared to a 20% chance of ending millions and ending the world with it. You’re dramatically underplaying what he thought was at stake.
I don’t think there’s any evidence that Stannis has a swolen ego or even desires to be the king. He’s never strived for it, never tried to play the politics game, never took an interest in the throne until he learned that he was the true heir and his duty was to be the king. There is, as far as I can tell, nothing to suggest that Stannis wants to be in the position he is, or that the power or admiration or other reward for being the king is something he even seeks, let alone something he would dedicate his life to.
This is the only part I agree with. He was burdened by the weight of his previous decisions, killing Renly most of all. It creates a psychological incentive to keep true to his course, otherwise he would have to admit that he was wrong and took those actions for nothing. But this doesn’t contradict what I said - this motivation works just fine alongside his clear characterization of duty above all else.
There is a difference between having a Messiah complex, being an insane maniac like Manson and someone like Stannis believing a prophet from a god that can demonstrate actual and real power. Melisandre proved herself to be the real deal, over and over again. At some point even the biggest skeptic has to start to believe.
I think part of what makes the show so good is that no single simple description of Stannis gives the full picture. The only people I disagree with here are ones saying “you’re 100% wrong, Stannis is totally X”.
Stannis had elements of nobility. He had elements of justice. He had elements of self-sacrifice. He also had elements of self-delusion.
Was Jon Snow responsible for the death of most of the wildlings? When they returned from Hardhome, Sam pointed out how he saved the ones that made it through Castle Black. But didn’t the White Walkers attack because he came with the boats. It would be quite a coincidence that the army of dead would just happen to time its historic elimination of all humans north of the wall at the exact time that the Lord Commander decides to rescue the Night’s Watch’s sworn enemy for hundreds of years.
By the way, are those of us in the Eastern time zone of the US the first to be able to watch tonight? I mean, besides the President of course.
I doubt it, it was just TV show timing.
***Wynter is icumen in
Lhude sing cuccu
Groweþ drakken
and bloweþ Wyldfyre
and wal be strong nu
Sing cuccu
Sam bleteþ after Gilly
Daenerys after drakken cu
Petyr sterteþ
Tyrion vukteþ
murie sing cuccu
Cuccu cuccu
Wel singes þu cuccu
ne swik þu nauer nu
Well HBO didn’t send out any screeners this year. I figured I’d try out HBO Now this time around.
Well, it certainly must have aired or is airing now.
I don’t remember the rules on this show’s threads, but is anyone going to start the spoiled and unspoiled threads for the premiere discussion?
Here is the episodic show only/non spoiler thread. Usually there’s a season-long spoiler/book thread.