Telling him to raise an army and march on Winterfell is a reasonably fair fight.
He would if he’s the one who arranged delviering him.
No, we don’t know that. We know it came from someone with access to info from Winterfell, but not all of it seems to be accurate, and there’s many possible sources.
Not if Ramsay ambushes him on the way. Or has pits dug on approach routes. There’s nothing about “come fight me” that implies fairness. Even if he has nothing planned, forcing a guy to leave his stronghold and food stores to march and fight a larger number of entrenched foes is completely unfair. Making Jon come to you instead of having to attack Castle Black is a gigantic bonus to Ramsay and is a good strategic move even absent any underhanded business.
You’re assuming an awful lot on zero evidence. Might as well assume that Illyrio is behind it. Or Bloodraven.
I mean you’re assuming that Littlefinger has roving bands of people in the North looking for Rickon when everyone in the world thinks he’s dead? Or that after Rickon showed up at the Last Hearth that the Umbers sent Littlefinger a raven to ask him how to proceed? How does Littlefinger end up telling the Umbers what to do?
I don’t think Ramsay is a particularly creative strategic thinker – he thinks he has the stronger position, and he’d rather the enemy come to him than march his army a few hundred miles north in the cold.
Didn’t Stannis’s army just struggle for weeks and week trying to journey from Castle Black to Winterfell through the snow? But Sansa rides into Castle Black like it was just a lovely afternoon ride through the countryside.
The snow melted after he burned Shirene alive.
What do you mean, zero evidence? You’re ignoring the “come and see” repetition. You’re ignoring the fact that Littlefinger, who has not been see in many episodes, reappeared in this particular one. You’re ignoring the lack of skin and body parts being sent with the letter, something Ramsay has always done before.
Also, I am not assuming anything. I’m speculating. You, on the other hand, are assuming that everything is exactly as it seems, which is an odd assumption to make for this show.
There’s a lot of ways that this could play out. Littlefinger is less a schemer, and more of an opportunist. His plays usually involve sowing chaos, telling everyone he is one their side, and waiting for a winner to emerge to ally with. He also seizes opportunities that present themselves.
So he doesn’t have to have been looking for Rickon. If he learned about Rickon by happenstance, then he can use that. He doesn’t have to tell the Umbers what to do, he asks them what they want to do, and capitalizes on that information.
…and Stannis isn’t dead because we didn’t see him in frame for the killing blow.
Hmm… Littlefinger wouldn’t know about Rickon… unless he’s the one who engineered his capture. Maybe Littlefinger cut a deal with the Umbers to retake Winterfell and he needs Jon’s wildlings to carry the day. Also, if he needs to rally the north to his cause, having the rightful Lord of Winterfell in a dungeon is certainly useful.
And hey, if Rickon is killed by Ramsay, that conveniently gets rid of the rightful heir to Winterfell so that Littlefinger can claim it and become the Warden of the North.
Littlefinger is not only capable of twisted manipulations like this, they are his MO. Think about the way he planted a dagger belonging to Tyrion with a common assassin, or the complex scheme he hatched to take out Jon Arryn in the first place.
This is all plausible, and stirring up chaos is absolutely Littlefinger’s MO. But there’s something unsatisfactory about having him be this successful a puppet master. It robs pretty much every other character of their agency - they are no more than pawns in his game.
Sansa has been his pawn for a long time, and it’s clear that his plan involves overthrowing the Ramsays and declaring her - by right of both Stark blood and inheritance of the Bolton claim - Queen/Lady of Winterfell, probably with him as her husband, certainly with him “advising” her. That’s why I want his death to come at Sansa’s hand. He’s shown her a certain amount of the behind the scenes scheming and it would be fitting for her to stop being a pawn by using that knowledge against him.
In any case, I think Littlefinger’s time is up soon. He’s an agent of chaos, but he actually requires a degree of order against which to operate. When the White Walkers come and he sees true chaos looming, there will be no place for him and his machinations. Littlefinger plays the game of thrones: but the game of thrones is ending and the Song of Ice and Fire is beginning.*
*My brother came up with that, and I’m kind of bitter I didn’t.
I’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic or serious but I’m actually pretty dubious about the whole Stannis thing at this point (and the reason the showrunners gave for not showing it: because it would have been “too gratuitous” is obvious bullshit). He was a really major character and the only aftermath we see of his death is Roose casually mentioning it in a conversation. “Oh, so Stannis is dead? How about that.” And now we have Brienne talking about executing him, and I felt like something was off with her as well during that scene.
If Bolton forces did actually find Stannis’ body, which I believe was claimed, then they wouldn’t have just thrown it on the pile with the other bodies. That’s a big fucking deal. They would have taken his head and mounted it for everyone to see. And they definitely would have taken his magic sword (what was it called again?). What happened to his body, and that sword? Brienne also could have taken it, but it hasn’t been shown as far as I know.
I feel like, because Brienne is a big softie, she might have let him go under some kind of understanding like that he vow to make his way to Essos with a new identity and never show his face in Westeros again. Not that she would have been incapable of executing him, because she did really hate him, but because of the shadiness of the entire thing and because of her character’s temperament it does seem plausible that she might not have actually done it. And also plausible that if he made a vow to whatever terms she demanded, she would honestly expect him to uphold it because knight’s honor and whatnot.
Brienne wouldn’t not kill Stannis, and then tell his Hand and the Red Priestess, who did more than anybody to help him win the Iron Throne, that she had killed him. I just can’t see that happening. Not her style. She’s not a schemer.
Another question: Could Sansa, as the senior member of House Stark now alive, legitimize Jon Snow? In doing so, would he become the leader of the house as the eldest male, or would she remain the top member?
If she’s the monarch – the Queen in da Norf – then I think the answer is “yes” and “no” (unless that’s what she wanted). Of course, like many of the philosophical discussions Varys, Tyrion, and Baelish have had have noted, power really lies in the perception of those being ruled – if most/all of the Northern Lords believe that Sansa is their ruler, then they will accept Jon Snow being legitimized and treat him as such (and therefore, for all intents and purposes, he is legitimized) – and if most of the Northern Lords want and accept that Sansa remain the ruler rather than Jon afterwards, they will accept Jon Stark as a real Stark who is nonetheless subordinate (and perhaps the heir unless Sansa has a male child) to Sansa.
Right now, the answer to the first is probably “no” – most of the Northern Lords aren’t behind her (yet). But maybe by the end of the season that will have changed.
OK Littlefinger is clever, but he’s not God. He had nothing to do with the Bran assassination attempt, he was in King’s Landing at the time. Joffrey sent the assassin, giving him a knife of his father’s.
Later, Littlefinger claims the knife used to be his, but he lost it to Tyrion, betting on Jaime Lannister. Tyrion exposes this for a lie, while talking to Catelyn, saying he would never bet against his brother. Littlefinger had nothing to do with the knife, but he saw an opportunity to sow chaos by fingering Tyrion (see what I did there?) and it worked like a charm – caused the Starks and Lannisters to go to war.
We don’t know the true story of the Valyrian dagger, but most likely it was Robert’s and never belonged to Littlefinger or Tyrion.
Also, the Jon Arryn plot wasn’t that complicated. Convince Lysa to do the deed, and then blame the Lannisters, basically.
Even if the northern Lords wanted to get behind a Stark, they wouldn’t acknowledge Sansa as Queen while she has one brother alive and one missing. Since Rickon is alive, surely they must realize Bran was not killed by Theon at Winterfell and must be alive somewhere out there as well.
They might, especially if the remaining Starks (Rickon and Jon, assuming that Bran isn’t found) support Sansa. In such a system, power resides where the people think (and choose) that it resides.
If Sansa forcefully and charismatically persuades the Northern Lords to support her, and wins a resounding military victory to regain Winterfell, then she might well be the Queen.
Indeed. Littlefinger is a great schemer and thinks really well on his feet, but he mostly takes advantage of what has been presented to him, either by blaming others or coming up with wild stories. He doesn’t know or control everything and making him God-like in his scheming powers would be ridiculous (though I’m not sure I’d put that past the showrunners).
Double checks the thread
There may be a wild card here: In the book Rob talked to Cathelyn about legitimizing Jon and declaring him heir, and Rob did send a letter north before the RW that may or may not contain that declaration. But I can’t remember if any conversation like that took place in the show.
Littlefinger did not plant a dagger belonging to Tyrion on anyone. That dagger was King Roberts and Littlefinger never planted it, he just told Catelyn it was Tyrion’s.
Lightbringer. It wasn’t magic either. Just a regular sword that Melisandre used a glamor on.
Stannis wouldn’t accept that, and he would want to die at this point, anyway.
I believe he’s indeed dead, but this pisses me off, because it was a big, long, complex and important story arc that suddenly went poof along with most characters involved in two episodes. I feel cheated and I’m extremely disapointed with this.
To most of the lords in the North, Bran and Rickon have been missing for a long time and are quite possibly dead. Sansa, they may see with their own eyes.