Yes, but why? She’s not Rhaegar’s wife. She’s not in danger from Ned. If Rhaegar is dead, she’s not going back to him in any case. Why is it so important that Lyanna be protected by the people sworn to protect the royal family (of which she is not a member).
[quoteThat was obvious to both of them. The only question was whether or not it was actually a kidnapping, which was irrelevant anyway so far as Ser Arthur was concerned. As a Kingsguard, he was just following orders.[/quote]
Was he though? I think, given that they could otherwise be at the Trident keeping Rhaegar alive, the orders to be somewhere else had to really matter. If Rhaegar had ordered Dayne to hide in a cellar, he wouldn’t just have obeyed.
Lyanna is his sister. Even if she hasn’t told Ned, and he hasn’t so much as laid eyes on her in the last 6 months, she’s been in a relationship with Rhaegar, she’s been taken to a secluded place and two (or three?) of the Kingsguard are protecting her when they could usefully be employed elsewhere. It wouldn’t take much in the way of searing insight for Ned to be sure beyond a reasonable doubt that she was in the family way.
I understand why its important for the story that nobody discusses pregnancy or the succession - God knows the series/novels wouldn’t be what they are without the delayed reveal of R+L=J. But what makes sense as an impressionistic flashback while Ned is sick and in prison seems a little more contrived when we’re treated to a live re-enactment.
There was clearly regret. But Ned *does *attempt to talk Dayne out of fighting - pointing out that his cause is lost in any case. And if he can do that, he can point out that he won’t harm Lyanna or the child so there’s no question of the duty to protect being broken.
(Robert claims Lyanna was kidnapped. There are hints in the books that Ned knows or at least suspects she went willingly. And as I say, it’s hardly impossible to guess that only a child justifies the presence of the Kingsguard.)
Don’t forget that Lyanna’s kidnapping was the whole impetus for Robert’s Rebellion and the whole war.
It certainly makes sense that Ned might think that Rhaegar had assigned three Kingsguard to guard the object of his obsession.
Also keep in mind that Ned doesn’t get a lot of time to think about this. After all, he expresses surprise that the Kingsguard are present in the first place at the Tower of Joy.
I don’t remember that surprise from the books, where the whole encounter has a grim inevitability. But you’re right about the show. *But *if he’s surprised, it’s still a bit weird that he doesn’t explore that a little. And if he does think it’s only Lyanna there, that’s even more reason to argue that he clearly isn’t going to harm her so there’s no need to fight.
“Why are you here? My sister needs no protection from me.”
“Perhaps. But here we are. Now it begins.”
“No, really. She’s my sister. Her boyfriend is dead. The war is lost. Enough men have died today. Plus, it sounds like she’s in a lot of pain. Are you sure fighting me is the best way of protecting her?”
“I said, now it begins.”
Again, it’s one thing when Ned is flashing back, remembering what is emotionally significant. But when it’s done “live” and we’re apparently getting the dialogue verbatim then you can see the inner workings a little bit. (And again, I fully agree it has to be this way.)
Rhaegar knew he was leaving Lyanna at a very precarious time. His orders would be not just to protect her, but also the baby and the secret of the baby’s existence. The Targaryen family was at the brink of extinction here, and Rhaegar could have seen a vision or dream or something of just how important the baby was going to be. Rhaegar was obsessed with the prophecy of the prince who was promised, perhaps he had some reason to believe this baby would fulfill the prophecy. For all we know, he legitimately married Lyanna and Jon is a direct heir to the throne.
Also, keep in mind Robert and Ned are the enemies. Their job is to wipe out Targaryens. Ned is not going to harm Lyanna, but Robert would certainly have the baby killed.
Actually, to the very present, there are cultures that insist the only proper way to deal with the shame of an unmarried woman having sex is for one of her male relatives to kill her.
Not that there’s been any sign that holds in Westeros as a whole (definitely not in Dorne), but hey, the Starks are traditionalists, following the Old Gods, so who knows?
If Rhaegar legitimately married Lyanna, then as far as the Kingsguard were concerned, little baby Jon wasn’t the heir to the throne, he was the rightful King.
You’re right! I was thinking the Tower of Joy was before the sack of King’s Landing, but I suppose it would have been after. Ned even mentions that Rhaegar and Aerys are both dead.
Given the brothels, and the upper-class affairs, and the mere sniggering which resulted from teh revelations of highborn incest, and the fact that it never crosses the mind of Ned Stark, the most honourable man in Westeros, and the total absence of any sign of a virginity-fetishising honour culture in any of the books or the TV show, I’m going to go out on a limb and say that I know.
I completely disagree, they talked how people there would talk. All that exposition would only serve to inform the viewer, not the people there having the conversation. It’d be forced and awkward.
We don’t know if Lyanna and Rhaegar were married, but I don’t think it matters. Bastard or not Robert would want Jon dead. Reason enough to have bodyguards. Plus, Rhaegar was way into prophecy and thought his children were important parts in the war against the Others. In fact he was interested in Lyanna specifically to get her pregnant for that purpose (Ellia was sickly and probably couldn’t have other children). If you think your kid is The Prince that was Promise, you better send the best swordsman in the realm to guard him.
I’m obviously in the minority on this one, but for me it seems forced and awkward for them to have a whole conversation about why they need to fight without ever mentioning who they’re fighting to protect/rescue.
True, but Ned would never, ever stand to see his sister’s child killed. Not a chance. And whether he could convince the Kingsguard of that or not, he could at least mention it when he’s trying to talk them out of fighting him.
Absolutely. Of course the Kingsguard are there for a reason. It just seems a little odd that that reason wasn’t even hinted at in the conversation about whether they needed to fight or not.
Look at it from the point of view of each of the principal actors:
Ned has just revolted against his king and prince, and fought and won a war in which his overriding goal is to retrieve his kidnapped sister. Now he is at the end of his quest. He knows his sister is in the tower, and three Kingsguard are all that stands in his way. He is not interested in having a discussion. As far as Ned is concerned, they are either going to stand aside or they are going to die (or he is going to die trying). And from their reaction to his arrival, it is obvious that the Kingsguard have no intention of stepping aside. Therefore the fight is on, with no need for needless conversation.
As for Arthur, he is under strict orders to defend Lyanna and her unborn child. Since receiving those orders, he knows that the King and Prince are dead, so he now knows that the child is one of the few surviving heirs to the throne (after Viserys). He knows that if Robert gets his hands on the child, then it will be killed. He is going to defend to the death the child and his mother. He has no reason to have a conversation with the seven armed men who have just arrived, and it really doesn’t matter that one of them is Lyanna’s brother.
The Kingsguard follow orders. Period. (Jaime notwithstanding) Ned knows this. He knows that it is futile to try and talk them into disobeying their orders. Also, Ned being Ned, I don’t know that he would even consider trying to talk honorable men into dishonor.
Correction: As Rhaegar’s sole surviving child, Lyanna’s newborn child in the Tower is first in line for the throne, ahead of Viserys, which makes my point even stronger.
But: how could Rhaegar and Lyanna have been married? He was married to Elia. There is some reference in the books to past Targaryan kings who married two of their sisters, but no indication that one can have two wives at the same time in present-day Westeros. Yes, Elia was murdered, but that happened after Rhaegar was killed at the Trident.
And if they weren’t married, then any offspring of Rhaegar and Lyanna’s would necessarily be a bastard, and thus ineligible to stand in line for the throne.
And yet there is a conversation. They don’t just silently start fighting. And in that conversation, Ned discusses reasons why the Kingsguard should not fight. Why they should - honourably - stand aside. Which is why it’s striking that there are perfectly good reasons for them to stand aside that he doesn’t mention.
This makes sense. I can see reasons why he should discuss the child with Ned (after all, Ned actually does protect Jon from Robert, and co-opting him to protect the child in the event Arthur loses is not a terrible idea). But not blurting it out in front of everyone is sensible enough.
I still have a nagging feeling that Ned could plausibly have mentioned it, but given that it has to be hidden from the reader/viewer it’s fair enough. (Although to be fair, because we’re only having the flashback now in the TV show, there’s not *huge *value in hiding it. It will come out this season, surely.)
Are you sure about this? Rhaegar died before Aerys, so he was never king. You’re saying the grandson of the king is first in line before the king’s own son, assuming the grandson comes from the first born?
shantih, as you note, Targaryens have had multiple wives in the past. That’s all there is to it.
Looks like a new Arianne chapter (as she’s getting closer to Aegon and Connington storming Storm’s End) has been put up on GRRM’s site. Hmm, where is the “Song of Ice and Fire” thread anyways: