In “Pride and Prejudice” there’s a character called Lady de Bourgh(?) who has a sickly/weak/passive(?) daughter named Anne. Now Anne has basically never done anything, but her mother is constantly comparing other people’s accomplishments unfavorably with what her daughter WOULD do, except for the fact that she doesn’t do them because she’s too fragile/delicate/sensitive whatever.
For sometime now I’ve been seeing a relationship between Lady de Bourgh and some of the more fanatical fans of GRRM.
I was thinking some more about this and wanted to add, the Quentyn storyline also may be important because Doran may take this as a sign to back (f)Aegon over Dany. After all, he still has a daughter to marry to a (supposed) Targaryen, but his son was burned to a crisp trying to marry a Targaryen (who wouldn’t have done so anyways).
Really it seems the removal of the Aegon storyline, while at the time understandable, really left a massive storytelling hole for the show (as it seems to be essential for what’s going on at Storm’s End and Dorne which are kind of nonentities in the show at the moment - because c’mon Cersei would have definitely have named some Wardens for Storm’s End and the Reach by now).
The episodic threads feature people a lot of people talking about what a genius GRRM is and how the show writers are awful retards who are totally lost without him, and those threads aren’t a good point for this comparisons, so I’m going to respond here to see if I can move the discussion over.
This was something I posted over there that I probably shouldn’t, on account of the no book talk rules, but it was driving me nuts:
And a reply:
So yes, the show is dumber now. The writing quality in season 7 and 8 is definitely a disappointment. It’s clearly worse than 1-4, and generally worse than 5-6. It’s disappointing that the showrunners don’t have a better ending up their sleeves. And they’re worse (and seemingly less interested) at writing a good story in general as they were before.
But “but GRRM would’ve done it better and the show writers are lost without him!” is bullshit.
GRRM didn’t do it better. He’s not going to do it better. It’s way easier to write an interesting beginning and middle than landing an ending. He gets to run out the clock, pretend he’s going to write an ending, pretend it’s amazing, and then die. Then all his fans will say “OMG, GRRM’s ending to the series would’ve been the most amazing thing ever! Too bad he only had 15 years to write it before he died! He never had a chance to finish it!”
Here’s the thing: At every stage, the show writers are creating a better story than GRRM did. Seasons 1-4 are better than books 1-3. They’re an excellent adaptation, but a lot of the best material in those seasons is original to the show. Various scenes, like the Cersei-Robert scene in season 1 talking about their marriage, the Arya-Tywin plotline, and various others are original creations of the show and just as good as anything else. The idea that they can only adapt the material directly is bullshit. They used to be able to engage in great writing.
Now - it’s easier to adapt a story, generally, than to create one. So they had an advantage. They got to pick the good stuff, trim out the bad stuff, and add their own good stuff to an existing framework. So I’m not saying the show writers are better than GRRM. But I am saying seasons 1-4 are a better version of the story than books 1-3.
Now, season 5-6 of the show suffered a clear decline in quality, but still very good. Similarly, books 4-5 suffered a clear decline in quality too. If D&D had adapted books 4-5 as closely as they did 1-3, it would’ve been a boring mess. We would’ve had literally 4 hours of Brienne walking around asking every fucking person in Westeros if they’d seen a girl of 3 and 10 with red hair. We’d have Penny the Dwarf and even more time spent on the boring part of Mereen’s politics. Books 4-5 are meandering to a ridiculous degree. A direct adaptation would’ve been pretty boring. So even though seasons 5-6 are clearly worse than 1-4, I’d say they’re still better than books 4-5.
So seasons 7-8 are a clear decline from even 5-6. Things are just falling apart in writing here. Previous strengths of the series, like great dialogue and powerful character scenes, are just mostly gone. Plots become less logical. A lot more stupid stuff. So clearly the show here is worse than the books, because… wait. There are no books. Huh, that’s weird. Didn’t GRRM have a decade to make something happen here to finish the story? Oh, he’s been writing other series and more worldbuilding books for ASOIAF instead? Huh.
The show writers are faced with a necessity to wrap up and bring together a complex story and they’re doing a mostly bad job of it. Surely GRRM did better! Wait, no, he didn’t, because when he had to wrap up this story in a satisfying way, he just didn’t. He decided fuck it, too hard, not going to bother.
So now we’re saying the show runners are so terrible, they clearly don’t know how to write, they only rode the coat tails of the great GRRM, who clearly would write an amazing ending! Except, of course, he didn’t. Because when he lost interest in writing the ending, he just stopped. The show runners couldn’t do that and had to give us something.
Who’s to say that GRRM’s version of the ending would be better? “But he wrote a good beginning and middle, so he’d write a good ending too!” - well the show runners wrote a good beginning and middle too, and yet the ending is unsatisfying. You can’t assume GRRM has some amazing fantastic ending just ready to go, because all we know is that he hasn’t written an ending and very likely will not write an ending.
So - seasons 1-4, better than books 1-3. Seasons 5-6, better than books 4-5. Seasons 7-8, better than non-existent books that the writer gave up on because it’s too had to wrap up his story in a satisfying way.
No matter how you read it, GRRM is not a hero here. He had 10 years to give the writers of the show something to adapt as an ending, and he just stopped. He stopped being involved in the show at all, and gave them a vague outline at best. This is his dereliction of duty more than theirs.
So I’m really fucking sick of seeing “D&D had to finish a story GRRM has decided was too hard to finish, his non-existent version is way way better! D&D are terrible and worthless!” - lavishing praise on an ending they’re sure will be amazing even though it will never exist, and using that as a way to attack the guys who actually did have to write an ending to the story.
I am trying to figure out why some fans are still ticked off by a cameo scene with Ed Sheeran. It’s not like he’s the first singer to have a cameo in a movie or TV show.
I have a suspicion ASOIAF is headed for a finish put together posthumously from author’s notes, unless he leaves instructions to not do that, and then maybe even if he does. At least then there will be someone else to blame.
He may have either consciosuly or subconsciously figured that he doesn’t really *have *to finish the whole megillah, at least not on a deadline. Maybe it’s that he does really need two whole doorstoppers taking a decade to write to achieve that. Or it could be that he has assembled so much of a world and a history that it has taken a life of its own and turned on its creator, and he has lost control of it, so there *cannot *come an “End of History” with everyone’s arc getting resolved without creating more loose ends.
I read someplace (which I can’t now find) that the details of the whole story have grown so complex that he relies on a couple of uber-fans to verify facts and background information that he’s forgotten. So yes, in a way, it’s gotten away from him.
I personally think the books, if they ever do actually get written will have the same basic bullet points of what the TV series has, but do it with a lot more credibility. Danys lighting up KL was not justified character wise in the show, but maybe in the books.
Is this uncommon? I know that Stephen King employ(s/ed) an uber fan as a researcher of his own books, as well.
This is what I think (and hope). Plus it would avoid all the little but still infuriating lousy writing bits – like GRRM’s Qyburn would have hightailed his ass on a pre-arranged escape route, on a ship to Pentos or something, as soon as the battle appeared to be lost. No way he’d stick around out of loyalty to Cersei. He’d have been embezzling for months to make sure he had enough just in case things went south.
Interestingly there’s actually a lot of evidence in the books that the Mad King wasn’t mad initially, and was actually driven mad by Tywin Lannister.
They were friends, Tywin was his hand, but it was possible that the King was either having an affair, or indeed just raping Joanna, Tywin’s wife. Possibly justification (with hair colours, and mutations), than none of Jamie, Cersei or Tyrion were actually Lannisters. Paranoia grew and Cersei was denied a marriage to Rhaegar and Jamie, Tywin’s in effect heir, got taken into the kingsguard.
I’m unsure of the timeline of it, but in effect Aerys got kidnapped at the Defiance of Duskendale, probably set up by Tywin, and it was expected he was going to die with that. Barristan the bold rescued him after a six month siege, he got rid of Tywin, and in effect became the Mad King after that… His paranoia may well have justified…
Great episode! This has felt like the most GRRM episode in YEARS. I can easily see GRRM telling the showrunners this is how the series is going to end and going into details - of course in the books Dany, Jon, Tyrion are all POV characters with internal decision making. I thought that when Dany was waiting on the wall of KL, hearing the bells, looking at the Red Keep is where GRRM would have her going through an inner dialogue before deciding to “Burn Them All”. The show may have benefited from doing something of that (as they did in the previous on at the beginning of the episode).
Oh, and FWIW, Book 4 (A Feast for Crows) is my second favorite book in the series, so I may disagree with how much better the show adaptations were than the books (solid job adapting them, but I still think the show seasons 1-4 were worse than the Books 1-3) ;).
Sorry, wrong thread…
So the book series is titled “A Song of Ice and Fire”. For most of the books/seasons, Ice was definitely ahead, with Winter coming and no dragons.
With the elimination of the Night King (in the show), is Fire now too powerful without Ice to balance it out?
I don’t see the creation of another Night King, but can Ice be promoted (I suppose winter is still here, not sure if the NK actually impacts climate)
Brian
Wanna name your kid after a GOT character? You’re not alone: Name of Thrones: Parents are naming their kids after favorite 'Game of Thrones' characters
as Disney talked about before, they officially announced the Star Wars movie coming out in 2022 will be made by the 2 GOT show runners Benioff and Weiss. They are calling that the first post skywalker SW movie.
I’m just glad I’m not very emotionally invested in Star Wars, that’s all I can say.
Lena Headey says goodbye to “bonkers” run as Cersei: Lena Headey's 'Game of Thrones' reaction is how we were all feeling | CNN
Martin says he has not finished the last 2 books contrary to what a GOT actor said. He has not even started on book 7. The actor said the books were done but not released to not interfere with the show
So, what is West of Westeros? Is the planet a [approximate] sphere? Will Arya hit Yi Ti or whatever is the farthest east mentioned?
Brian