Gandalf Vs. Dumbledore

Gandalf

Dumbledore is a big fish in a small pond. Goblins work at a bank. Dragons are so mild a little boy can fly rings around them. His worst concern is a bunch of black robed wizards looking to hit him with a beam of light.

Gandalf lives in a world of deadly dragons, rampaging orcs, evil wizards, and an angry god. That’s why he isn’t the best of a big group of wizards. The rest of them are dead. He’d spank the cute little Dumbledore even if he was high on hobbit weed.

The problem is that Gandalf’s powers are never very well defined. (That is, even less than Dumbledore’s).

I think it’s instructive to compare their opponents. OK, D is easily a match for V one-on-one, and G isn’t to S, but each have struggled on occasion and each pair seem of comparable stature.

And Sauron is completely above V. Sauron lays waste to entire continents, is the right hand of a being that rebelled against the creator, and reduced a lot of the most powerful mortals to puppets. V, while maybe cooler, is a man gone bad.

Umm I dont think that Gandalf ever departs Middle Earth. He falls down with the Balrog, follows it through the tunnels, battles it while climbing up the endless stair and eventually fought on the Peak above Moria [Celebdil i think]. He was then found by Gwaihar the Eagle, who took him to Lothlorien.

I suppose

Could imply that Gandalf did indeed depart Middle Earth, but i interpret it to refer to a falling in and out of counciousness.

To get back on track, I reckon Gandalf would come out on top. His worst opponent the Black Captain of the Nazgul far outranks even the most diabolical evil of Voldemort.

“Extremely intelligent” in Tolkein’s context = “wise” and was largely in line with his own fumbling helplessness with technology. In Tolkien’s world the “intelligent” elves, even the more crafty ones that constructed the jewels of power etc, basically had to be walked through a paint by numbers instruction in how to do so by higher powers. Tolkien’s comfortable conceit is that even after “ages and ages men” men are basically stuck in a sort of static middle ages esque level of technology for over 2,500 years. From the first opening battle with Sauron to the time of the Fellowship, technology has changed little if at all.

Harry Potter’s world has societies and people (both magical and non) of more conventional intelligence and accomplishment, and in real terms the Harry Potter characters are just plain “smarter” and more canny than the Tolkien characters. If we’re going to ram the two books together for a battle royale, Dumbledore as written is inherently cleverer than Gandalf. Quasi-Elementals may be powerful and long lived, but in the world of one on one magic the cleverer and more canny mage usually always wins.

Dumbledore wins . No question.

Gandalf. no question.

Gandalf? Hell, Radagast could kick Dumbledore’s ass without breaking a sweat.

You know, I hate to say anything bad about Gandalf, but I really have to question whether he could beat Dumbledore.

The nature of magic in Tolkien’s world is very hazy. It seems to be more a matter of willpower and inner strength than of throwing magic firebolts or turning people into frogs. Gandal faces down the balrog because he is inherently stronger, not because he knows the correct spell.

Now compare that to the Harry Potter world where magic is a very active force. Wizards levitate things, transform them, inflict horrible pain on their enemies.

So I see Gandalf’s inherent magic strength as making him immune to Dumbledore’s spellcasting. Gandalf is simply too powerful to be affected by such trifles. But what would he do in return? He can’t turn Dumbledore into a newt. He is not allowed to unleash his full fury as a maiar.

I think we’ve got a draw on our hands.

Nah. This is when Gandalf busts out Glamdring and starts slicin’ and dicin’ :slight_smile:

This doesn’t just mean that his wizard’s staff was danglin’ in the breeze. By “naked”, he means “without corporeal body”. All of the Ainur (and even some lesser beings, like the Nazgul) initially had the ability to don or remove their flesh as easily as we would don or remove a robe, and to “walk unclad” through the world. Some, like Gandalf, voluntarily gave up this power, and some, like Sauron (and I’m guessing also the Balrog), had it severely restricted against their will. But when the Powers that Be decided that Gandalf’s work was not yet done, they sent him back to get dressed again.

And I’m still not going to say anything about the outcome without a plausible reason for the fight, but I will say this: Wisdom and experience notwithstanding, Dumbledore’s got a lot more style.

What if he clubs him on the head with his staff?

they way I see it, gandalf is really powerful, unimaginably so. but sort of the way jesus is powerful. you know what I mean? I could probobly punch jesus out if he was around.

gandalf has powers to change the fate of the world, not so much with micromanagement. I mean, his strongest shown dirrect attack spell is flameing pinecones, and harry potter wizards can teleport at 16, while gandalf definitly can not.

I think gandalf is more powerful, but in the way jesus is, infinate power, but not all-powerful, a bunch of romans can kill jesus… I think a teleporting/levitateing/disarming/deathspell throwing wizard could probobly kill him… temporarily.

You should make this your sig.

Nope, it’s official. Googlefights lists Gandalf as the far-and-away winner, 789,000 hits to 289,000. I use Googlefights to solve all my dillemas. Dillemae? Dillemi?

wizard: google prefers ‘dilemmas.’

owl: I know what you mean. But…

…is a bit hasty. He does something to Saruman, breaking his staff and his power, and Saruman supposedly the most powerful wizard in middle earth. At the seige of Minas Tirith, iirc, some sort of light “stabbed up” from him, driving the Nazgul off.

Part of the problem is that in ME no-one teleports as such. Yet in HP, no-one’s as generally powerful as Sauron. They’re not comparable.

Are we talking about the Dumbledore whose main contribution to the fight against evil seems to be showing up after a couple of twelve-year-olds have saved the day and making a speech?

Could someone point me to the chapter in the trilogy where this is discussed?

For that matter, there were more than three people in Middle Earth powerful enough to fight it. Off the top of my head, Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron, Galadriel, Elrond, Glorfindel, and Cirdan are shoo-ins, and I’d give good odds for Radagast, Allatar, Pallando, Elladan, Elrohir, Celeborn, Arwen, Shelob, or the Witch King. Of course, this is just speculation for everyone but Glorfindel, who’s been there, done that.

I don’t know about all the Elves you list here. Non maiar fighting an extremely powerful Maia from the Elder Days? At most, I’d consider Elves who were also around in the days of Morgoth, such as Galadriel. But Third Age newbies like Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen?!

And as for Shelob and the Witch King . . . c’mon, they were defeated by hobbits, for Eru’s sake!

Absolutely no way. And don’t call me Shirley. :wink:

Voldie is a slug crawling up the side of Sauron’s toilet.

Gandalf.

Hey, remember, Fingolfin dished out pretty well against Morgoth himself, and you just can’t find much tougher foes than that. And Elves have long generations: The children of Elrond aren’t all that far removed from Fingolfin. I was hesitant about putting Arwen on the list, but we do know that she takes after Luthien. If that’s in more than just looks, then yeah, she could handle it.

In any event, there are at least seven people in Middle-Earth capable of kicking some butt of shadow and flame, not the three previously claimed.