Gay-bashing versus Christian-bashing

In My Humble Opinion
21

As an educated American, that quote reminds me of Voltaire. Of course, the quote was just attributed to him, but I’m pretty sure it came about way before Archie Bunker’s neighbor.

I’m not sure if you realize how offensive your words are. I’m straight, but I’ll try to explain it to you in such a way as you might understand.

I can choose to lie to people. I can choose to steal, if that’s what I wanted to do. But there’s absolutely no way I can choose to go out one day and lick bush. Nuh-uh. Ain’t gonna happen. I like dick. And I guarantee you that any gay person who comes into this thread will say that they could TRY to get their engines started by the opposite sex, but eventually it’ll just stall. See, here’s how you look at it. We don’t have any choice as to something so fundamental as the gender we’re attracted to. And if you’re a Christian, you think that God created each individual soul–you know, that “I knew you in the womb” line that you use to try to say that Jesus didn’t like abortion either. So why, if God created someone to like 2 tab-A’s or 2 slot B’s-together, would He then send them to Hell because they didn’t go for tab-A-slot-B like they “should” have? It just doesn’t seem fair unless it’s a choice. And it’s not.

So when your religion condemns people for doing what they’re wired to do, and when the followers of said religion compare the wired act to an act of conscious choice like lying or stealing, well, you can see how this might get some folks a tad bit pissed off.

22

Amen!

23

What Drain said (and eloquently at that).

Of course, now y’all have given me an idea - the Gay Guy goes door-to-door! :smiley:

“Hello, sir, my name is Esprix, and I’m calling on you today to talk to you about… say, do you work out? ;)”

Esprix

24

**PillEater wrote:

Although they are in the minority, there IS such a thing as militant homosexual groups, one(group)of which, in Madison WI, rioted against a church, storming in and defacating on the altar, and causing many thousands of dollars in damage.**

PillEater, can you give us a cite for this, a newspaper article or such? Frankly, I can’t believe that. I know many radical gay people (and in the Wisconsina area, I used to live in Milwaukee) but the idea of them storming a church is unbelievable. Even ACT-UP, in their most radical days wouldn’t do that.

Which church was it by the way? And which group claimed responsibility? Queer Nation? ACT-UP?

DrainBead great stuff! Thanks!

25

Let’s compare, shall we?

Stealing: I take something from someone against their will. Something that does not belong to me, without the other persons permission, and probably something that they really need or want.

Lying: I decieve someone to gain some kind of an advantage over someone, possibly to manipulate them or their feelings.

Homosexuality: I love someone. So this person happens to be the same gender as myself makes the love bad. So bad, it’s like stealing and lying.

aha, with all due respect, put this in the Pit instead so I can really tell the OP how I feel about this comparison…

:wally

Yer pal,
Satan - Commissioner, The Teeming Minions

*I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Five months, two weeks, six days, 13 hours, 46 minutes and 29 seconds.
6942 cigarettes not smoked, saving $867.87.
Extra life with Drain Bead: 3 weeks, 3 days, 2 hours, 30 minutes.

*“I’m a big Genesis fan.”-David B. (Amen, brother!) **

26

On the one hand, you have countless acts of violence and terror against homosexuals across the country. On the other hand, you have a single act of vandalism. Yeah, those balance out. :rolleyes: I guess we should just agree that both sides are intolerant…

“The gays have invaded! And they crapped in the collection plate!”

27

Pilleater,

you said ‘To me, violence in the name of Christ is just as offensive as violence against Christians.’

and went on to claim a homosexual group had attacked a Church.

I find this incredibly short-sighted. Let me try to show you the error of your ways by similarly overstating the anti-Christian case:

  • for centuries, Christians have been fighting and killing each other in Northern Ireland. Men, women and children have been shot and blown to pieces over which branch of the Christian religion should rule. Children go to segregated schools. Violent events of the 1600’s are celebrated annually, requiring police and army units to stop these violent religious fanatics…

I could go on, but I hope you realise your mistake.

Naturally, I wish to apologise to Christians and all Irish people. I am trying to show Pilleater how hurtful his/her postings are.

28

The homosexual lifestyle? Is this something that would be represented by information other than stereotypes? Is this saying that sexuality is chosen and therefore to describe gay men and lesbians that to diminish them by saying their lives are ‘lifestyles’ is accurate? This ignores the diversity within gay men and lesbians and claims that inherently we are all the same, even though in every other group it is obvious that while there is a thread of similarity, the individuals within that group are different.
It is the idea that sexuality is a chosen thing and can be changed which lead many gay/lesbian/transgendered teens to think that they can change and when they find they can’t, leads them to suicide, which is the number one killer of young gay/lesbian/transgender people. With information like that, is it any wonder that some of us are militant?

Where is the attribution for this supposed gay desecration of a church? Unless there is information to back up this claim, this comes off as nothing but a nasty urban legend or a vicious ad hominem attack. It isn’t enough to make a claim, it must be supported, or it holds no weight.

29

Drain Bead, I adore you. I have rarely run across such an eloquent explanation of why gay people resent such analogies. Can I quote you?

In regards to the OP: I personally used to have some friends who were fundamentalist Christian. I am also a Christian, but a liberal one. They all knew I was gay and had the “love the sinner, hate the sin” sort of mentality, which bothered me to an extent, but we did reach an understanding about one another’s opinions. One girl in particular was like a sister to me.

Then quietgirl and I started dating, and all Hell broke loose. Pun intended. You see, I had previously been dating someone who lived quite a distance away, and quietgirl and I went to the same school. I guess they couldn’t handle having it “right in their faces.” Not that we ever gave any inclanation that we were dating while in school.

One day in August before my senior/quietgirl’s junior year, these five fundamentalist friends invited quietgirl and I to one of their houses after band camp. We went. They blocked in my car and proceeded to talk with us for about two hours. The highlights of what I was informed of and experienced:

I’m the tool of Satan.
Quietgirl is a weak willed girl who parrots my opinon.
I made her gay.
I made my male best friend gay.
I’m not a Christian.
I’m going to Hell.

Then they tried to exorcise the homosexual demons from us. A bunch of teenage kids performing an exorcism. They were speaking in tongues and all.

I should explain that quietgirl is nicknamed so for a reason. When she’s confronted, she stammers and doesn’t like talking. She was too upset to say anything during the whole ordeal.

Also, at that point in time, we were in a difficult spot in our relationship- we were in the process of telling our friends that we were dating, which was very hard as quietgirl realized she was gay when we fell for each other, so no one knew about her. In fact, one of the fundamentalist girls was her best friend, and we were planning on telling her knowing full well she wouldn’t take it well. Instead of us telling her, the other fundamentalists did. How dare they… how dare they do any of that to us.

It was one of the worst nights of my life. The aftermath was that our circle of friends was utterly divided and I didn’t speak to any of them again. Actually, I had to threaten them with a harrassment suit first, as they were writing letters and witnessing to us every chance they got. My own minister was shocked when I told her of the incident and made a whole lot of phone calls…

Oh, and quietgirl and I are still together and happy.

I am so bitter. I still do not know how to get rid of my anger at such a betrayal. I’m trying, but it’s not easy.

So you can perhaps understand why I now dislike fundamentalism. I know that they don’t represent the whole fundamentalist community. However, I feel that they represent the attitudes against homosexuality.

I did not choose this. Whenever someone informs me that I made a choice, they are displaying breathtaking ignorance.

Do I bash fundamentalists? Not as such. But I do think that, for the most part, the God they worship is one based on falsehoods, hateful misinterpretations, and delusions of grandeur. And I have yet to meet an evangelical fundamentalist that changes my mind.

andygirl

30

Some days it is just sooooooooooo hard to be a Unitarian Universalist… {sigh}

andygirl, if you ever come over to my house with my friends, I’m afraid we might block in your car so we could do something about that wardrobe, that makeup, that hair, those Birkenstocks, and by God we’ll put a quiche in you if it’s the last thing we do! :smiley:

Esprix

31

LOL, I could just vision a flame like Jack on “Will & Grace” dressed all flamboyantly. :stuck_out_tongue:

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread

32

[ Complete thread hijack ]

Andygirl, there’s a word for your “friends”: kidnappers!

What they did was kidnapping or at its politest, illegal detainment.

Legal charges could be filed against them and (since they’re minors) their parents and/or guardians. If you haven’t told anyone, especially your parents, I would recommend you do so. What those “people” did was not only highly immoral but also highly illegal. Please consider your options.

[ /Complete thread hijack ]

33

I have a question for Drain Bead.

First pretty colorful analogy. But on to my question about what you said. You said they don’t have a choice on what gender attracts them? Ok I can see that point. If a gay dude feels the same way I do about a girl as I do a guy I can see why he wouldn’t want to go that way. But what about a bi-sexual they do have a choice don’t they?

34

WB- Not a choice, as such. At least, not in the way that you might think of a choice. Yes, a bisexual person can choose to be in a relationship with a man or a woman, but there isn’t an on/off switch- bisexuals are attracted to members of either gender, regardless of which particular one that they’re dating.

[hijack]
Since you have so many questions about sexual orientation, if you’re interested, I can send you some links and book titles that discuss sexual orientation in detail. Let me know.
[/hijack]

Freyr, I did consider it. I also informed everyone who I though should know about the incident. In the end, I figured that just living my life was the best way to deal.

35

Fortunately I did not witness the full brunt of this attack, but came in later.

There was a straight couple who opened an “alternative” bar in rural PA. It did not take long for the fundies to find out it was mostly gay. The the height of the protest, there was an attempt to firebomb the bar, it was shot at, my partner was maced with pepper spray, cars were chased, cars were surrounded, horn honking at all ours of the day, license plates were traced (with the help of a local police chief) and the owners were acknowledged as they exited their cars, a doctor shared his records with the protesters so they knew who had AIDS. Oh, I forgot the KKK rally…

By the time I started going to the bar, the protest was limited to a few people who just video taped (if there was tape) everyone who came into or left the bar.

Now the bar is closed, due to the lack of patrons. One would think we live in the 50’s instead of the '90s. :mad:

The biggest rabble rouser, a “self-styled” Anabaptist has also picked a local Rosary Rally (Catholics are idol worshipers, you know) and a local folk fest for selling alcohol in a church on Sunday.

Show me gay/feminist groups that have gone to such violent tactics to show their disapproval?

One reason I will voice my disapproval with someone who attacks me and my orientation based on what the Bible supposedly says.

36

http://www.planetqnews.com/0708/policeignore.shtml

BTW “Christian Love” got cut off, must not be allowed “” in subject lines :confused"

37

Eyke,

Those people that did that how do you know they were “fundies” ? And if they were “fundies” they were not living the way Christ would have them live. They were wrong. Sure there are some wacky people in every sect but why do “fundlementalist” get labeled so poorly? What the OP was trying to say it seems like just because a few fundlemist are crazy it seems like all of us get labeled that way.

38

No shit, they’re not living as Christ would have them live. That’s one of the things that’s so irritating about them. Smugness coupled with complete hypocrisy. That’s one reason they often come across like such idiots.

Wildest Bill, I’m not sure what you want. For many of us, the phrase “fundamentalist Christian” is a synonym for someone who believes that if you aren’t exactly like them in belief, orientation and culture, you are going to hell, and should be persecuted. Different FCs have different levels of abuse they’re willing to dish out, but the underlying message seems pretty consistent. It’s not just a few people saying hateful things, or performing hateful actions. It’s incredibly widespread.

Do you consider yourself to be a fundamentalist? If so, what does this mean to you, in contrast with just “Christian”? Do you not see the image that fundamentalists as a whole are projecting? I never assume that a single fundamentalist (e.g. you) is going to act like this, but the group as a whole sponsors some pretty negative messages.

39

Well Giraffe,

Maybe there is more than one term for a fundlementalist Christian. I thought it was just a Christian that follows what the Bible says and not what religion says. That is what a fundlementalist Christian is to me anyway. And I don’t remember anywhere in the Bible where it says to harass gay bars.

40

Wildest Bill,

It’s in there. Near the back. Right after the section about calling pregnant teenage girls murderers and whores.

Your interpretation sounds nice to me. I don’t much care for organized religion, and think it should be more based on personal interpretation (if that’s what you meant).

However, you realize that the Bible is a book very much open to interpretation. All the fundamentalists I’ve ever encoutered (who also actively partook of organized religion, BTW), believed in a single, inflexible interpretation of the Bible, which was and could be the only correct one. People who didn’t agree should be converted and/or driven away. If that one interpretation says homosexuality is wrong, well then…