Oh, goodie. He’s turned into a harangue-utan…
And Left Behind is the worst kind of fundie porn bullshit. There are whole branches of Christianity that don’t believe in a literal Rapture. Any “doctor of theology” that puts his reputation behind LaHaye’s eschatological ego-fantasy has no reputation. The fact that Cameron not only appeared in the first movie, but the second also, proves he has not only no talent, but also no judgment.
Oh, now it’s because of the rapture? Anyone who believes in the rapture has lost credibility, cause that means everything else they believe is wrong too? Give me a break.
There are a whole bunch of people who don’t believe in it, but there are a whole bunch that do. That is such a minor issue though, and to discredit someone who doesn’t hold the same eschatological view is a bit strange. So that means anyone who also believes in Post Trib, Pre Trib, Mid Trib Pre Wrath, has no credibility, unless you believe the same thing? And no, I didn’t once quote the Left Behind movie, I used Kirk and Ray Comforts web site.
Now I can also see where this can go, and for things that the Bible isn’t clear on, and this is one of them, I know what I believe, and if you don’t agree with me, or you think something different, then it’s something we can agree to disagree, and not loose sleep over. It’s like the belief that angles sing. It’s not in the Bible, it’s something that I hold a view on, but it’s not something I’d debate.
Baker- we both agree with that, I think. The thing I disagree with is when it’s used to appease a guilty sinner.
Svt4Him, I’m going to put it to you straight. The reason you will not join in a scholarly, moderated, structured debate is because you know you will lose. You do not have the faith, courage, and trust in God that Elijah had in his battle, or that Abraham had when put to the test by God.
If you did you would put yourself on the line and at least try.
Anything connected is probably bullshit too.
Just don’t apply that to this issues in this thread i.e. sexuality. Because while we can agree to disagree on rapture, agreeing to disagree on sexuality … no. I refuse. Because then someone is going to get hurt by some jackass who thinks the 11th Commandment is “Thou shalt smite the faggots in the head”.
I rarely, if ever, stop the fight for equality on this subject because SO MANY PEOPLE use their “Christian” beliefs to justify horrible things they say and do, and worse things they DON’T say or do. Fuck, dude, do you think the undecided on this issue take Phelps’ continued existence and continued picketing as a sign that he’s deranged, or that someone who does as much as he does must be “onto something”? The continued anti-gay shit in the news, such as the Anglican priest who resigned his position because church officials thought his parishioners would take exception to his sexuality, doesn’t exactly help Howard or Holly Homosexual, teens who aren’t out to anyone because they’re afraid of what might happen. Non-het people, and especially teens, are at an severe disadvantage because of an anti-gay atmosphere allowed to promulgate itself because of people who don’t see anything wrong with going to “witness”, to PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY CHRISTIAN, and spouting utter doggerel like “pre-marital sex is in violation of the ten commandments”, WHICH IS ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT AND WE ALL KNOW IT! And I swear, dude, you go trying to cite motherfucking GALATIANS at me again, when the Commandments are in EXODUS, and we’ll fucking see if I can’t just “reach out and touch someone”.
Do you not understand that this isn’t a hypothetical? This is MY LIFE, and this is jayjay’s life and matt’s life and Homebrew’s life and Polycarp and Siege’s by association, since they’re fighting it with us? For every one of us there are hundreds of people who walk around with a mental list of “Things God Has Told Me To Smite”. And first and foremost on that list are the GLBT folk. Doesn’t matter what they’re doing. And it doesn’t help our fight when someone comes in and wastes our time and can’t even admit when we’ve proven him wrong. In the time I’ve devoted to this thread … shit, dude, the things I could have done that would be more productive than THIS bullshit.
And here’s something else. Know what? I have to watch what I do around B (fiancee)'s parents because I’m pretty fucking sure they wouldn’t be thrilled to know that I’m not heterosexual. Her dad seems more understanding of the fact that we (B and I) aren’t religious (and he doesn’t seem to be especially anti-gay), but her mom … well, I learned a long time ago not to discuss things like sexuality with her when I found out that she didn’t think it was appropriate for B’s nieces (who are both under 10 years old) to watch Will and Grace because she doesn’t think they should be exposed to “that sort of thing”.
“we can agree to disagree” on any number of things that aren’t important (angels dancing on the head of a pin, etc). But unless I can see that someone just isn’t listening to anything I say I refuse to back down from ANYONE who feels it’s their place to tell someone (like me, for example) they’re horrible or going to hell or somehow inferior or “if you don’t do what I think this book says, you’re going to hell.” Because you don’t know. And your continued backpedaling and spinning and “re-stating” and “clarifications” only show most of us that you can see you got caught in some really thick bullshit.
Know what happens when someone like you says “according to my belief system, you’re a horrible sinner and going to hell and the only way to save yourself is do exactly as I say?” You don’t show them God’s love. You show them judgment. And you imply your own ability to judge THEM. Maybe I’m reading the abridged version of the Bible where Jesus takes the stones out of the hands of those pursuing the woman (who had merely been ACCUSED, not convicted, of doing ANYTHING wrong). Do I need to quote the Bible here, or do you remember what your Savior told them? Something about them not being so perfect themselves.
So stop.
Stop.
Stop devoting all this time of yours to “witnessing” to people who are already Christian. Stop trying to convince yourself that you’re doing His work and go out and do His work. Volunteer at a soup kitchen or a homeless shelter or your local library. Don’t try to be a shepherd. Don’t think you know how to save people from judgment or Hell or anything like that. Because from what you’ve shown here you don’t even know your own way to Heaven, let alone anyone else’s.
No, go and serve those who, according to the Beatitudes, are God’s people. Go serve the meek and the downtrodden and the poor. Go help them. Go be their servant. Because the gay Christians don’t need any instruction from the likes of you.
Actually, neither Eligah nor Abraham were put into a debate, and to infer that that is the reason I’m declining isn’t terribly accurate. But so be it. I get called some nice things when I’m gone for two days, and since I’m going camping this week, I’d hate to also start a debate and miss it all. Although not having a spine for turning down a debate is an interesting thought. Must be some internal issues I have eh?
iampunha- so to go to the streets and share the gospel isn’t appropriate? I think I have done no changing of my story, only when words are put in my mouth do I feel the need to explain more. Can you tell me every single peson in Cedar Srings on a Friday night at the pub is a Christian? If not, then it’s still not worth us going down there?
And again, I ask you straight up, where have I lied, and where have I been proven wrong? I didn’t know this was about proving me right or wrong though, but would like to know your thoughts. You have so far called me a liar, jackass, evasive, talking out of both sides of my mouth, deluded…well, that’s all I know for now, yet when I ask to say why you say that, I get more of it.
You’ve spent a lot of time answering, so have I. You could have been doing something else, so could I. But obviously this is something important to you, and I’d guess that in the past people have not had a lot of compassion, and for that I’m sorry. To address the women caught in adultary, Jesus offered her grace, which is what I’ve said all along, grace to the humble, law to the proud. You can not imagine my compassion, and it is really hard to convey over a forum, but anyone saying or implying the 11th commandment is not correct. Not only that, let me tell you something that I really believe, and have seen. My friend was a homosexual, then he became a Christian, and his life changed. He started going to a church, but when he told his friends he use to be gay they stopped calling him. In some people’s mind, this is not the unforgivable sin, but pretty darn close. To go in with that attitude really is wrong, and it’s why homosexuals have a hard time staying in churches, and that’s sad. It’s sad that a lady can gossip all day about people, yet look down on someone because of their sin. It’s sad that people can come with so much pride on why someone is like this or that. Really, it is. And it’s sad that people forget that they were no better.
A lot to respond to in that post. I wish I had more time … well, no. That’s not true. I have lots of time. What I don’t have is any guarantee that this post will fare any better than some of the longer ones I’ve posted here. So. Here we go.
Where have you lied? Well, let’s see what we can put together from Page 2’s posts.
On page 2, where we see your second post to this thread, you had this to say:
Rest of quote omitted for the sake of relevance.
We press on, eager to see where this is leading.
Emphasis mine. How he arrives at this opinion of a person, you ask? He didn’t indicate (though to be fair I didn’t ask, nor did anyone else IIRC, how he did figure it out). I’m going to guess that he asked something like “Do you think you’re a sinner?” or “Do you think you’re going to Heaven?”
Remember that bit about the Ten Commandments. We’ll be coming back to that soon enough.
We next have this useful bit from Homebrew regarding the specific area Svt4Him said he’d been standing in/at/around:
Emphasis mine.
Next post from Svt4him after Homebrew’s enlightening post and the spinning begins.
Emphasis mine. Now, let’s bear in mind this is coming from someone who, earlier on that page, had said the following:
Emphasis mine. So we have “we didn’t meet up with the church” and “we used to go and meet with the homosexual church”. Not a lot of wiggle room there, as we see soon thereafter.
Homebrew reasserts his point here:
Svt4him tries to explain away the difference between “we met up with the church” and “we didn’t go to the church”:
This is inconsistent, at best, with both what Svt4him has posted before in this thread and what Homebrew knows about the area in question, since Svt4him has already said he went to meet with the homosexual church in Cedar Springs.
Svt4him attempts to explain this dichotomy following Tanaqui’s post:
Homebrew spells out the issue of church vs. bar here:
So…he was at a church. No, wait, he was at a street corner. No, he was at a bar far from the church. Er…he purposefully went to a place where he knew there would be gay people (many of them Christian) for the specific purpose of handing out something that says, among other things, this:
Emphasis mine. This raises some interesting questions, and one of which Svt4him has failed to answer.
Given that the ten commandments do not once mention sexual acts between non-married people, how is it possible that having “had sex outside of marriage (or desired to)” is a violation of same?
What is the point of witnessing in this fashion to people one knows will be predominantly Christian (given the area, as both Homebrew and Svt4him have mentioned)? They already know about the ten commandments and unless one has specific information to the contrary, one should assume they have their own plan for being saved. So … why go witnessing there?
Why go witnessing in areas where you know the people are already Christian … unless you don’t think Mormons are Christian, or JWs are Christian, etc.? That strikes me as being more than a little haughty, not to mention proud … which is one quality I believe you mentioned speaking out against, Svt4him. Ah yes, here we have it:
Now, maybe it’s my Catholic upbringing, but I don’t much see the point in witnessing to people who are already Christian. Silly, naive bear (cue Jayjay the Adorable Bear running in here and giving me a big ol’ hug) that I am, I thought the whole point of witnessing was to do it for people who haven’t heard anything of the Bible … thus the huge amount that gets done in Africa, Asia and the Middle East. I mean, Gosh, if I’d known we were supposed to witness to people who are already Christian, I would have done a lot more of it at the Christian high school I attended. But presuming that I’m able to witness to someone who’s already Christian (particularly a monk!) means I know something they don’t, which, unless I know that for a fact (and if these are random people I’m meeting, ain’t no fact in that), I can’t assume. So if I did that’d make me … what’s that word again, Svt4him? Ah yes. Proud.
And let’s not even get into the issue of why anyone would hand out this tract to someone who is already Christian … unless they happen to believe that it’s impossible to be gay/Mormon/JW and Christian at the same time. IIRC Svt4him never fully answered that one, though I could be wrong.
By special request of Guinastasia; stop reading if you’ve heard this one.
I was on the metro with my now-ex-boyfriend Éric. We were chatting, when a woman turned to us and said, Excuse me, I wonder if you’re aware that freedom from homosexuality is available through the power of Jesus Christ.
I said, I wonder if you’re aware that freedom from Jesus Christ is available through the power of homosexuality.
Real simple questions for you, though tough, Svt:
Were you in front of, or near, the Cathedral of Hope witnessing, or not?
If so, why did you feel it important to witness there?
What would you tell a gay Christian? (There are a few here, so your time writing your answer won’t be wasted.)
Construe John 14:6. Why did Jesus say it? What does it mean?
What is the heart and core of the Christian message, IYHO?
What is your opinion of “ex gay ministries”?
I’m seeing in you a man quite badly misunderstood, and in some ways not doing a good job of extricating himself from some poorly phrased statements. So I’m not asking to shoot you down – though I may have some disagreements with what you have to say! – but to give you a chance to make your points clear, in a non-hostile environment (from me, at least).
But I would very much wish that you try not to equivocate in your answers. If the questions don’t address the points you’d prefer to make, answer them anyway, then show the reason they are skewed to what you think is important to say about that topic.
Actually, why witness at all?
Esprix
Because one believes one is called to, Esprix. The schematics of that are what separate the good ones from the ones who do just that which they do not seek to do (i.e. drive people away from Christ).
notices his cue, very late
runs into thread
{{{{{punha}}}}}
runs out of thread
Bah. And they accuse us of recruiting? :rolleyes:
Esprix
And THIS, folks, is why I have a useless crush on matt_mcl. Too bad I’m a girl!
I don’t think Svt is here for now. S/he said s/he was “going camping”, remember? So, in their mind, that gets Svt out of answering questions for a few days, because when they get back from “camping” there will be far too many question from the likes of Polycarp, iampunha and even myself. The poor dear will be “so overwhelmed”, and when they do their usual waffling, and someone calls them on it, they will use the sheer volume of text as an excuse for their silliness.
Plain and simple, Svt4Him is a faithless coward that doesn’t have the guts or brains to say anything straight out.
“A man is most inclined to condemn in others those sins of which he most strongly feels secret guilt.” 
From the perspective of evangelical Christianity, however, witnessing is both something commanded by one’s Lord (Matthew 28:18-20, Mark 16:15-16, Acts 1:8) and the ultimate kindness to one’s fellow human being, in showing him/her the Way by which he/she can be saved from a life of eternal punishment and torture. From their own perspective, His4Ever and Svt4Him were returning loving compassion for vilification. I think that’s mportant to grok – they are by their own standards showing love while being attacked.
My own stance is somewhat different. I believe in a God of love, whose desire it is that men and women should know Him as such, not as a particularly benighted tyrant whose wrath can be warded off by sucking up to his favorite Son. Turning to Him enriches and fulfills one’s mortal life, enhancing the natural capacity to love and be loved, to care and share rather than being anxious about one’s personal and selfish future.
And what Freyr had to say to me earlier in this thread about my own personal blinders is probably important. The God who IS, as opposed to the Magical Sky Pixie, the Evangelical Ogre, YHWH as Zeus-with-a-yarmulkeh, or any other human conception, is infintely beyond what we can possibly comprehend in full. But though we cannot savoir Him, He makes it possible to connaitre Him in the modes and capacities available to each of us. And naturally our conceptions will be conditioned by the traditions of our own cultures. Which is to say that I know God under the forms and nature of the classic Christian understanding of Him (as carefully distinguished from the evangelical horror-comic tract) but do not delimit who He is to that grasp. I am at one in this with C.S. Lewis and traditional doctrine, which saw Him revealing His nature in the Tao Te Ching, Aristotle, and you-name-it, not merely in the pages of Scripture.
[Henry Higgins]
By George, I think he’s got it!!
[/Henry Higgins]
In whatever way we view the Numen (and by whatever name we call it [Him, Her, It, Numen, Whatever]), I think it’s safe to say that we’ve all made the mistake of confusing our perception of it with the thing, Itself.
Of course, it’s even funnier to imagine the god of the Tetragrammaton growing a vagina and a set of tits, and putting on a dress. Then calling Himself Athene, Freya or any other feminine name to satisfy another set of followers.
I’ve a feeling that Mr. Koshchei of Heinlein’s Job: A Comedy of Justice is far closer to the truth than many philosophers and theologians might be willing to admit.
As I said the first time I read that book, “Who knew Jehovah was middle management?”
Polycarp, I have been unable to get an answer on this from the poster child for Unsuccessful Witnessers whom you are in more contact with than I. I think you also are in more contact with some others who use her style (albeit some in a more brute-force way and some who mix in a little more of God’s Love into their message).
What is your perception, if you have gotten a clear/concise answer from them, regarding how they handle those who say “You are driving me away from God.” etc? Because it has been my impression, here and in several other venues, that they usually attribute that to someone having an improperly balanced view of God (three guesses what they see as being overplayed).
I would think that saying something like “your witness of God is serving only to drive me away from Him” would have rather more of an effect on them than it has in the past (and not just with said poster child). It seems as though many of them attach a certain element of pride in their efforts to beat people over the head with The Bible … or, alternately, take pride in the fact that they are attacked for demonizing others (and also seem to think that they have somehow succeeded in bearing proper witness to God’s whatever by doing so, even at the repeated and emphatic statements by their audience to the contrary).
Finally, it would appear that, barring some miracle act of Thread Bumping by our adversary, this thread is coming to an end. There’s a GD thread in here somewhere, but I can’t find it right now.
I presented just that question to her recently elsewhere in what was as non-confrontational a manner as possible – sort of a “even given what you say, the effect is to alienate people.” Her answer was (1) as one might expect, she cannot deny the truth that she’s called to proclaim, but (2) given that point, she’s thinking about it. “A journey of a thousand miles….”
…usually doesn’t begin on a good note when one punctures all four tires and lets the gas out of the tank.