Gay Christians are better than Straight Christians

The BBQ Pit
161

I posted some of this yesterday, but the hamsters ate it. Gobear, iampunha, I’m pretty sure you two and others have read this before, but it bears repeating.

For those of you who don’t know my story, I had a particularly nasty time of things in high school. I’m a straight female, but I made several mistakes starting with befriending a girl who had handicaps, being born in the wrong country, and obstinately refusing to end my friendship with the girl I mentioned and conform. As a result, I was taught that it is wrong and disgusting for me to love or even like anyone. For me to show an interest in a fellow was an insult. I was called ugly, gross, disgusting, “fugly” (short for “fucking ugly”), and pretty much every other name in the book or out of it. I believed no one was capable of loving me and I was unworthy and undeserving of love. Anyone who even showed friendship toward me ran a risk of being put down and similarly insulted, therefore few people had the courage. I am a Christian, and as hard core a Christian as any Fundamentalist out there. One of the main reasons I’m a Christian is because my church was the one place in town I could go and feel accepted, loved, and welcomed, even when I didn’t feel welcome in my own home.

I am a straight Christian, absolutely dedicated to Christ and obeying His commandments. While I do not wear His name in my handle, I wear it in my heart and firmly believe that if my actions do not reflect His influence on my life then it is arrogant for me to publicly claim His name.

I have never married. I came close once, but the experiences I described in the first paragraph left deep scars which it has taken a great deal of time to overcome. There is more to marriage than sex alone. There is a smile from one’s spouse, a presence, a laugh, someone to talk about the trivia of the day with. The night before last, I was worrying myself a bit after a stressful day, and I wished badly that there was someone there who could just put his arms around me and give me a hug.

While both the Catholic Church and my own Episcopal Church have vocations set aside for those who wish to lead a celibate life in service to God (the Episcopal Church has nuns and monks), I’m not aware of any such provision in Protestant churches. Even those who do choose celibacy are part of a community and share simple companionship. I personally, as a Christian, based on scripture, what I understand from the life of Christ, and from my own experiences with Christ in my life, believe that telling homosexuals that it is immoral for them to want to love or marry is a direct violation of the Commandment Christ, Himself, gave us. I believe that because I have been told that same thing, for yes, there was an implication that it was immoral for a gross, vile, disgusting thing like I was told I was to love.

Flamsterette_X, some of the kids who told me these things were Christians and members of their church’s youth group. One of the few people who did admit to being my friend in public and who did comfort me also went to that church. About 15 years after we both graduated, he told me, rather nervously, that he’s gay. I’m not sure what his current religious affiliation is, but can you see why I am firmly convinced that there are gay Christians, just as there are gay musicians, engineers, etc. (Just as a side note, having known both engineers and musicians, it’s my personal theory that the best of both of them have a certain mental bent that makes them natural engineers and musicians and which would make it difficult for them to be anything else.)

I will not do to others the damage which has been done to me, and I will do what I can to defend others when people try to inflict that damage. It is not my place to say who is or who is not a Christian. It is my place to love and honor my brothers and sisters just as I love and honor God. To do otherwise is to make my faith a mockery.

CJ
Who seems to be living up to her handle!

162

I remember the story well, Siege, and can relate one of my own, sort of.

I was friends (very good friends … actually, one of the best friends I ever had up to that point. But I digress) with a fellow in high school who was … well, some would characterize him with the phrase “short, fat and ugly.” I do not. I didn’t really give two shits about how he looked except that I was interested in how he performed various functions given that he had a formation I had hever seen before and never seen since:

One of his arms (his right) had been grabbed by forceps during his birth to the extend that the nerve connecting that arm to the rest of his body was severed. It could move, but he felt nothing in his fingers or really much beyond a few inches down his shoulder. He could move the joint some, but not as high as someone with customary nerve function (and as such, muscle function). I was endlessly fascinated by this, but by the grace of Whomever I was naturally able to express it in a way that didn’t so much imitate a child’s endless pursuit of knowledge as it did that I took his difference as a sign of an inner strength rather than as a sign that he’d be a really bad right-handed pitcher:D

There was another person (also a good friend of mine, and one person among few from that place whom I have actually talked to in a good way since high school) who was his friend. That person was reasonably popular his first two years of school (they were in the same dorm and the same year of school). Our senior year, he was a prefect (same sort of thing it means in Harry Potter) and co-captain of the football team. He was also an influential member of the Red Key Society (organized by the administration, and in no sense hush-hush, and in charge of luring prospective students to come to campus by presenting it as A Haven, basically;)).

I ran into this guy a few years ago, and among other things he said that some people had communicated to him that he would have been much more popular had he abandoned his friendship with the guy with the funky arm (to put it in a slightly Curious George manner). He was bewildered by this and thought it rather crass that someone would separate themself from him due to his acquaintanceship with, rather than distance from, someone purely because among other things, he was kinda short (5’6"), kinda pudgy (probably abour 210), had red hair, had a kinda high voice and had that “troublesome” right arm.

Chris and Chris’ friendship was just that, insofar as I am able to tell (I came out to one of them during that conversation and he had no issue with me). It wouldn’t be my business either way. But two things about this are particularly telling to me:

  1. A school made up of Christians (the people involved I am 100% sure identify themselves as such) chose to dissociate themselves, in any part, with someone because of how one of his friends LOOKED.

  2. He KNEW this and did not abandon that guy in any sense, though he did lament to me that Chris had happened upon a group of people who accepted him and encouraged him to accept a life that, if he is still engaged in it at all, is not going to bode well for his medical mealth. Drugs and booze in extremely high quantities. And Chris’ medical health was already not that stellar, as he was a premie with an at-least partially compromised immune system.

Chris (the lefty) didn’t have a whole boatload of friends. He was a great guy, a great friend (one I wish I were still in contact with, actually …::rushes off to Google Chris::slight_smile: and undeserving of that scorn pointed his way. Chris (the non-lefty) could have had many closer friends and instead chose someone who was a good person, instead of people whose closeness to him would have made him more popular. He preferred one good person and great friend to many superficial people and, as he discovered, bad friends.

That, to me, as much as anything in doctrine or dogma or fervency of belief, is the Christian walk.

163

Would you believe me if I told you that standing on the street corner at Cedar Springs and Throckmorten, handing out tracts and telling us that homosexuality is against God IS seen as arrogant cymbal banging by your victims… er… I mean the people you are trying to reach.

What does Matthew 22:40 mean to you, Svt4Him?

I think it is one of the most significant statements attributed to Jesus. Throughout the Gospels, Jesus is questioned by the Literalists of his day about one thing or another. He is hassled by them because his disciples picked corn in violation of the Fourth Commandment (Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.) Jesus was chastised for healing a man on the Sabbath. He was asked what to do about the woman caught in adultery mentioned before in this thread.

In the first and second instances he made it clear that if following one of the Ten Commandments caused suffering OR allows suffering to continue, then it’s to be ignored. Because suffering is not Love and fails against the two upon which all the Law and the Prophets hang.

In the second instance he went strickly against the law as promulagated in Leviticus. Instead of calling for her to be stoned, as set forth by THE LAW, he gave mercy and Love. Again THE LAW failed to meet the requirements of The Royal Commandments and had to be set aside.

This view that Love is the determining factor is supported further by Jesus’ story about the Samaritan who helps the crime victim. All of the good, pious, live by the letter of THE LAW people were judged as failing by Jesus because they did not show Love. The Samaritan was held up as the example to follow. Not because he followed the letter of THE LAW or tried to keep all of God’s commandments. In fact, we don’t know what religion the Samaritin followed. Was he a follower of the Roman pantheon or a Hindu or an Essene? It doesn’t matter because, as Jesus said, he met the requirements of the Royal Commandments. “Go and do likewise.”

164

Actually, it’s likely that the Samaritan was, religiously, a Jew, though a heretical Jew. The Samaritans were the foreigners that the Assyrians repopulated the North Kingdom with after they all but depopulated it. They adopted the religion of the region with some modifications. That’s one of the reasons the Jews of Judaea hated them so much…much as the various stripes of Christians in Europe spent several centuries making war on each other over relatively minor points of doctrine.

This is also one reason the Good Samaritan is such a profound parable. Modern culture (mostly because of the influence of this parable) sees the word “Samaritan” as denoting someone who’s very loving and kind. The word has a positive spin now. But in Jesus’ time, the Samaritans, to the Jews, were the equivalent of the Palestinians to the Israelis. Hated, looked down upon, derided…to be told that a Samaritan was kinder to a Jew than several very high-class Jews were was almost Zen in its contradiction.

165

Witrh all the Scripture quoting back and forth, it is it possible to advance the proposition that we live in a secular society, so that those of us who do not subscribe to any religion can live as equal citizens? I find the idea that religious folks have the right to dictate how the rest of us live our lives to be repellent in the extreme.

166

I haven’t really seen any attempts to argue for legal enforcement of someone’s religious beliefs about homosexuality in this thread, actually. Most of the scripture-tossing is going on between Christians on the “gay is ok” side and Christians on the “no on homo” side.

Even in a society in which the government was absolutely, strictly, no exceptions neutral on religion (no “In God We Trust”, no chaplain for Congress, etc.), Christians would still have the right to try to convince gay people that they need to, as the priest in our high school health classes taught, sublimate their desire for the same sex. I don’t know you terribly well, gobear, but I think I know you well enough to know that you wouldn’t want it any other way. Nor would I.

167

I think I said it before, but let me say it again. We were not saying homosexuality is against God, as a matter of fact, I very rarely addressed homosexuality unless asked. And even then, I’d try not to bring it up.

Matthew 22 means pretty much what it says. To say that it’s not by works is true. But to say works have no part is also not true. If my wife says she loves me, then runs off with another guy every time I’m at work, then is her love true? Her actions show the amount of love. If I say I love my kids, and beat them every time I see them, then do I really love them? I believe the same can be said about the link between works and faith. Now if my wife does truely love me, or if I do truely love my kids, then doing what is best for them doesn’t become a struggle, it becomes something I naturally do. Well, not all in natual, some of it I don’t like doing, but I do to help my wife.

168

I think that was part of my point. Religious beliefs/scripture, while they may be fervently believed to any degree bythe person holding them, do not constitute a legal mandate nor are they valid if the other person does not accept their objective veracity.

BTW, re: Samaritan, I’d compare it, in terms of what would offend many conservative Christians, to maybe even someone who is Muslim. From what I have seen around here (both in terms of SDMB assholes who are self-identify as Christian and in terms of this geopolitical area), the term is not exactly bandied about with the best of intents. Or, in an ironic twist, someone who is Catholic coming to the aid of a Fundie (especially one who believes Catholics worship the devil, or however that willfully misrepresentative stance goes).

And if you go to talk to people with the specific intent to witness to them (especially since they are already Christian and as such don’t need to be saved:rolleyes: ), rather than, say, discussing last week’s football game, or the weekend sale at the grocery store, or just … oh, I don’t know, some aspect of their lives that doesn’t revolve around “REPENT REPENT!”, surely that is the ultimate show of love. Remind me to demonstrate this love next time I’m near a Baptist church. I’ll have to remember to go tell them (while both going to the church and not … still wondering how you pulled that one off) they need to be saved. You. They’ll take well to that.

Do you understand the disconnect between how you see yourself and how you present yourself on this MB? It is tellingly striking.

169

A good point. Given what’s in the press recently, especially within the Anglician Church, this is an issue still being wrestled with and could easily provoke schisms within each branch. As a Wiccan, I can only stand back and watch the fireworks fly. I’ve a feeling it’s going to get a lot worse before it gets any better. My sympathy to those on both sides of the conflict.

170

At the risk of being seen as self-aggrandizing, might I suggest you read some more? Better still, post any questions you might have to them. Since you admit you know little about the LGBT community, it might be a good way for you to learn a little bit more.

Esprix

171

I had high hopes that you were a conservative Christian who would listen and discuss, Svt4Him, and I’m bitterly disappointed in you – which bothers you very little, I’m sure.

Quite simply, a failure to show caring about the individuals in question, a witness that says the total of their sexuality is equivalent to your (nonexistent) wife’s adulterous affair or your one-night stand, and your insistence on hijacking this thread to deal with your own dislike of Mormonism (I happen to disagree with a lot of LDS doctrine, but I can do it without insulting LDS members or spreading lies about them, thank you!) – indicates that you have not the slightest clue what Christian compassion is supposed to be.

I would be immensely pleased if, instead of either rattling off some Bible quotes or getting angry, you refuted my assertion at the end of that last paragraph, by proving that you care about other people, including the gay men who have taken you to task here.

But I doubt you will.

172

I had thought he would stay in this thread, Poly (which is one reason I actually read his posts), when I wrote my responses to him. This experience, if nothing else, will teach him that while you can walk away from witnessing to someone who doesn’t buy your crap and you don’t get much come-uppance, you look like an absolute jackass for walking away here, Svt4him. And since the crowd who’ve been in this thread tend to hang out in, collective, every other forum on this MB, it’s not like you can hide out in Cafe Society or IMHO or anything.

Rather, you might consider actually reading the responses that have been posted to you lest you further cement your negative image on this MB. Assuming, of course, that you care how others perceive of you. Given my experience with unrepentant “the only good thing about a gay man is that if you don’t succeed in making him Christian, you can wash your hands of him” folk, I’m not sure you have respect for anyone here, much less yourself.

173

Not, understand, that I’m saying, really, I told you so. But…well…

(Though I do respect your and Poly’s patience, punha, my hunches are usually pretty good…)

174

Welcome to the club. A woman who claims to be “defending true Biblical doctrine” has been seizing every opportunity to defame the name and character of Fr. Robinson elsewhere – she lurks but does not post here. And I’ve been thrown into the mix, because presumably I’m a “purveyor of false doctrines” for supporting him and what he stands for.

I want to quote one brief excerpt from an interview with Fr. Robinson, for Priam and a few others in particular.

I hope Svt4Him and Flammi and a few others read that, mark it, absorb it, and inwardly digest it – because it defines the great sin of American Christendom against gay people, and what to do about it.

I have one question for Svt, and I hope he’ll do me the honor to respond. He and his group went to witness outside the Cathedral of Hope, the largest MCC congregation in the world. Presumably people who go to worship in such a church are Christians (or seekers after Christ), and it’s likely they’re gay.

What witness was it that you felt you needed to bring to gay Christians? No evasions; the exact truth of what it was you thought you needed to tell them, please. I can accept that it’s your belief that active homosexual activity and Christian behavior are not compatible, though it will offend most if not all of our gay brothers and sisters here. But I want to know what you thought was important to tell them, pulling no punches.

Thanks.

175

Geez…I go on vacation for a few days and I’ve apparently missed another “Christian” giving the rest of us who actually try to love our neighbors as ourselves a bad name.

Guess I’ll spend my day at work tomorrow reading this whole thread… before I decide to comment.

176

Ok, again there are a lot of people asking one or two questions, that I can not possible answer all.

The idea that we were outside a church telling all in the church to repent is wrong. I think I said before, we were outside a bar. Now how many times to I have to say it, or was I unclear? Now does that mean I’m saying everyone in a bar is not a Christian? No, but to say every single person who is there is a Christian, is wrong. Not only that, but we usually talked to people who wanted to talk to us. I do not even know where the Cathedral of Hope is, but honestly if we were there Sunday morning it’s a bit different then being there Friday night. But I feel I have to explain, as everything I say has been attributed to an obvious lack of compassion or caring on my part (I think I was just reading about this on another thread about common sense?) if you would like to go in front of my church on a Friday night, which is also close to a bar, and talk about God to anyone who came, let me know and I’ll give you the address. I would have no problem, nor would I assume you were saying something about my church because of it.

Now I have a bad name here, and comments are made how I’ve used talking about adultery or bank robbers in reference to homosexuals. I don’t think I really could be any clearer on it, as I was in no way saying they were equal, they were strictly used to try and illustrate a point.

What did we say to the people we witnessed to? The exact same thing we said to people in Deep Ellum, the exact same thing we said to the people downtown. But when you say we witnessed to gay Christians, are you saying every person in Cedar Springs is Christian? Now when I say we said the same thing, that’s actually not correct, cause that implies we had a set list of things to say, and said it everywhere we went, but it was usually preaching of law to people who believe they are good enough to get to heaven through their works, and preaching grace to people who know they were not good enough, and needed to feel that they could be loved. And then there were times when we did no preaching at all, only listened and took some out for food.

Does someone want me to prove my compassion? Sorry, it would never happen here. Can’t do it. I’m classified as some “Christian” who’s belittled other ‘true Christians’, or at least given ‘them’ a bad name, even before this person has read the posts (although it’s a bit late to say you won’t comment), and I’m suppose to change your opinions? Come on, that’s not very possible, or at lease highly improbable. See, if you follow the comments, the OP (I still don’t know what that means…so if someone wouldn’t mind) says Gay Christians are better than Straight Christians, but that’s ok, cause his motives are to get a reaction, is a great example of how it’s ok for someone who you agree with to say something that if I was to say would cause a great commotion, and my character again would be attacked, as it has been through this whole area.

As for respecting people here, I don’t really know how to answer that, so how that equates to a low respect of myself I don’t really know. But my last post was the 19th, today is the 21st, so how soon do I have to respond in order not to be seen as a ‘jackass for walking away’?

As for reading the posts, I do try and read most of them, although not all, and actually, I’ve read a lot of the links as well, like the ones about the atrocities against people who even appeared to be homosexuals as well as homosexuals. As I said before, it’s not possible for me to reply. Not only that, but when issues are brought up, then we can discuss them. When my character is brought up, the issues get lost, and I find I’m just defending myself, and I really have no desire to do that. And for everyone who’s quoted ‘love your neighbour’ would I be considered your neighbour?

As for Mormonism, I didn’t intend to do that. I’d have to go back and look at why it was brought in, I believe it had something to do with the fact that some religions put books as high if not higher than the Bible, and that all religions don’t have the same beliefs. I was then asked for references to this, but obviously it was part of my diabolical plan to diss Mormons. As for the lies I’ve told about them, I usually post references, so if any of my references are incorrect, let me know and I’ll gladdly change these “lies”, and I’ll even publically admit my error, as it was a public forum. See, when you say I lie, you are again attacking character, and the issue is lost. Feel free to even email me the “lie” and I’ll change it.

Cheers.

177

Svt4Him - “OP” refers to either original post or original poster. Hope that helps.

178

Thank-you.

179

Recommend that you have nearby:

  1. Tylenol (for headaches)
  2. A metal bowl (for puking)
  3. Spare glasses in case you want to make sure you’re actually reading what you think you see.
  4. A Bible (so you can keep up with the dueling Bible-wielder. For my part, I don’t try to throw scripture at people. I use logic knives instead)
  5. A pillow so when you feel like screaming, you don’t wake up people in the next zip code.
  6. A warm towel (see #1)
  7. Nothing to do for about five hours, because some of them posts are LONG.
180

I think Svt4him is the first person in SDMB history to post from a Merry-Go-Round. I haven’t seen that kind of misleading, evasive and outright lying spin put on ANYTHING since … well, I think someone would have to put together a thoroughly typical His4ever post to have a shot of doing it any better.

My congratulations, Svt4him, if you have succeeded in deluding yourself to the point where you are actually able to believe what you posted above. Unfortunately it was not convincing. One can only talk out both sides of one’s mouth for so long, after all. I’d spend an hour or so outlining a few instances where this is painfully clear, but I’ve devoted enough time to someone who doesn’t have the courtesy to at least FAKE coherency (notice how many times I ask for clarifications when I can’t figure out what you’re saying? Notice how many times you actually respond to me?). Let someone else give you another chance to throw out the window. You are a waste of my time.