That was a fucked up thing to post, Gobear. Way fucked up.
And Ghanima, Sol isn’t defending the bigoted Christians, he’s defending himself. 'Cause he’s, y’know, a Christian and everything. If you say “all Christians are X,” you’re talking about both him and Fred Phelps. And as much as everything you say applies to Phelps, ain’t none of it that applies to SolGrundy, Polycarp, or andygirl. Or my mom, for that matter, who’s a practicing Catholic and every bit as offended by these laws as you or me.
One thing I figured out a few years ago (and forgot earlier in this thread) is that, when you come right down to it, religion really doesn’t matter. It’s just an excuse. Being a Christian hasn’t made RTFirefly a bigot, but neither has it made Jesse Helms a decent human being. The Christians out there who are kind, compassionate, and respectful would be that way no matter what religion they followed, or if they followed no religion at all. Because they’re simply good, decent people. And the bigots and the haters and the theocratic fascists out there would be every bit as evil if they were Buddhists, or pagans, or atheists. Because they’re assholes. Religion doesn’t make anyone behave in one fashion or another. It just gives them a convenient hook on which to hang their pre-exsisting motivations.
It’s a pity you and Miller think so, but Sol Grundy’s whining is working my last nerve. He’s free to be as Christian and as gay as he likes–good for him. But he does not get to redefine words so that he does not have to listen to unpleasant truths. One unpleasant truth is that the anti-gay amendments passed this week were driven by large numbers of evangelical Christians. Whole churches turned out to vote against our civil rights. That’s a fact.
I grow so tired of this obsessive “oh no, we mustn’t make categorical statements” bullshit. Hell, I got reamed a couple of years ago for saying that Germans were behind the Holocaust, as if Dachau and Belsen were staffed by the UN. I’m an American. I’ve never been to Iraq. Does that mean a news article that says “Americans invaded Iraq” is an unfair generalization about Americans? When the news says that a new skin disease is targeting gay men, is it saying that all gay men have it? Bitch, please!
No, not all Christians hate gays. Some Christians are gay. In its teachings, Christianity is a beautiful story of sacrifice and redemption. But I don’t judge the faith by its teachings and what it ought to be, but how it is practiced. I quoted the verses from The Epistle of James to Sol Grundy to illustrate that the test of faith is in action, not lip service. but he refused to see the point. I don’t really much care if somebody says that they love me, and to show how much they love me, they hit me. Should I believe their words or their actions?
Americans invaded Iraq.
Germans killed Jews.
Japanese committed atrocities in China.
Christians organized an anti-gay political campaign.
I bet if I had said that Republicans were anti-gay, Mr. Grundy would bring up the LCR, omitting that the LCR isn’t welcome within the party; GOP candidates won’t even take their money. Sure, there are gay Republicans, but they are pariahs in their own party. And so with Christians. sure, there are gay Christians and gay-friendly congegations, but that doesn’t change the fact that overall, Christians are antagonistic to gay people. It doesn’t have to be that way, but there it is.
Indeed, but that misses the point that to many devout Christians, both the Old and New Testaments contain passages that are taken to condemn homosexuality as inherently sinful. A person who has been brainwashed with that religious nonsense is likely to be more anti-gay than a freethinker.
As for his issues,
If a message board can leave him “shaking with rage,” he’s got some real problems he needs to address.
In short, fuck Sol Grundy and the god he rode in on.
I shouldn’t be so hard on the man, and I don’t bear him any ill will, but he’d do better not to talk down to me again if he doesn’t want to elicit a snarky response
According to CNN’s exit poll, Bush got 78% of the evangelical vote. Bush voters are far more likely to have voted for the anti-gay amendments. 78 percent—not a small segment of the Christian community.
But the correlation between votes for the anti-gay amendments and votes for Bush isn’t there. If anything, MORE people came out simply to vote for the anti-gay amendments than voted for Bush. So you can’t extrapolate Bush’s 78% of the evangelical vote to 78% of the evangelical vote going to the anti-gay amendments. It was probably higher than that, actually.
The thing is, though, that there were majorities in the 70% and above range on some states’ anti-gay ballot measures…there is no state in this country (with the exception of possibly the state formerly known as Deseret) that has 70% of likely voters be evangelical. There just aren’t THAT many of them as a percentage.
What you really want to rail against would be straight people, because there’s no single religious denomination/sect that has numbers that high in any state but Utah. And I think you’re far too intelligent to let your pain get in the way of recognizing the ridiculousness of claiming that straight people, as a whole, are anti-gay assholes, with the huge number of exceptions both on here and in real life.
It’s over. We need to pick up the pieces and figure out where we go next. Chewing on old soup and bitterly blaming this group or that group for what happened isn’t going to change anything for the better. And it may make things worse. Adults figure out what went wrong and try to fix it. Children lash out. I know you’re an adult, gobear. I would never have respected a child as much as I do you.
So <Cher>SNAP OUT OF IT</Cher>! We’ve got work to do in the next two years. Let’s quit chewing on our livers and get moving.
Snarky? Snarky? Dude, what you wrote goes fuckin’ light years beyond snarky. I don’t want to jump all over your shit, because I know you (and me, and SolGrundy, and Polycarp, and pretty much everyone else in here) are posting from a really bad place, emotionally, right now. But what you said to Sol really goes above and beyond. I know you’re pissed. And you should be. We’re all pissed about the same thing, and we’re all lashing out in different directions, because what went down last Tuesday is just too big to deal with right now. I don’t want to try to tell you what you’re feeling or anything like that, but are you really angry at anyone in this thread?
We’ve never met, but you’ve been one of my favorite posters ever since I joined up here, and I think I know you well enough just from that to know that in a week or so, once we’ve got some distance from the shit that went down last Tuesday, you’re going to feel bad about that post, because I don’t think it’s representative of who you really are or what you really feel. At least, I hope not.
Fuck, I dunno. Sorry if any of that came across as preachy. It just hurts to see posters I respect turn on each other like that. None of us are at our best right now. Please, everyone, keep that in mind for the next week or so and try not to let crap posted in the immediate aftermath of the elections get too far under our collective skins.
Be well, gobear. You too, Sol, Polycarp, Ghanima, JayJay, and everyone else. It’s just a battle. It’s not the war.
Thanks, Miller. (And several others who have been offering words of reconciliation – Dropzone and Rilchiam come quickly to mind, and I know I’m forgetting at least a couple of others.)
Something that struck me hard after reading that post: It’s so much a cliché that it’s been parodied over and over again on this board. But seriously:
If we let that election (and several other unpleasant occurrences) drive divisions between us, then our opponents really have won.
The thing I stand for most is an atmosphere of compassion, forgiveness, acceptance, and mutual support in time of trouble. Advocating for that has gotten me into a position where I’ve been doing anything but that to some awfully decent people. May I please have your forgiveness, folks, for having been so angry I unjustly condemned you? There are a bunch of you – if you’re reading this, and have felt that I slammed you in the last few days, yes, I mean you too.
Now, you stop that! Both of you! I don’t care who started it!
Didn’t you both get enough of that on Tuesday night to last the rest of your lives? Please, if there’s anything we need VERY LITTLE OF, it’s gay people ripping one another into shreds. That’s already being done quite effectively for us, in case you hadn’t noticed it.
The scary people are the people who WANT TO TAKE AWAY YOUR RIGHTS. Neither of you are in that category. SolGrundy is neither a religious fundamentalist nor a closet case; gobear is not a separatist nor a Colosseum lion, so you can stop screaming at each other now.
You have way worse enemies out there than each other, so chill already before someone loses an eye.
I have, actually. I am looking for another at this time. That wasn’t THE reason, there were a couple.
Now my feet have a sticker on them saying I voted.
Here’s common ground. I feel the same way.
And right now it deeply offends me that our children have to say “under god” in the pledge, and it offends me that people think they have to deny gay people rights in hopes that they’ll eventually just go away. That’s the rationale, isn’t it? Make it illegal and fewer people will “choose” to be gay? Make the masses live morally? Then it will cease to be “trendy”? Why does it harm Christians so much to live and let live? If it’s because the lord won’t let them stand idly by, then news flash: that is legislation of religion and ILLEGAL. If it’s because they don’t want their money spend to fund abortions then that’s another issue. I don’t want my tax dollars spent to slaughter Iraqis. But these issues can be solved without legislating hate.
Yes, I agree with everything you said. I just want to remind everyone to replace “Christians” in your post with “some Christians.” What some people are saying is not what Christianity is about. They have corrupted the tenets of my religion, and used it to attack thousands if not millions of other people, including myself. I believe that the religion, the truth of Christianity, is still valid, and still deserving of respect.
You’re absolutely correct in saying that the rationale of many people voting for these bans is that they’re opposed to homosexuality itself, not just same-sex marriage. That’s the whole issue. Equal rights for all. They want to make homosexuality illegal, so it will just go away. They can’t ban homosexuality outright, we’ve progressed to far for that. So they just have to chip away at it, to remind everyone that they don’t condone it.
I don’t know how to “fix” that; I wish I did. I wish I could take every other self-described Christian and explain to him personally how I’m able to reconcile my faith and my religion, so he’d understand. That’s what I try to do on here. And no, people still just don’t get it. There just has to be a way that works for everyone, a way that’s larger that any of the petty and hateful people who can’t see past their own worldview and past their own selfishness.
And Miller, don’t break out the mandolins just yet. Some people would see this as a crisis of faith – to see whether I’m just giving lip service to Christianity, or whether I can really hold true to its tenets of forgiveness and compassion. Well, I’ve already admitted in this thread that I’m not good with the “turn the other cheek” concept. The posters that I respect more than anyone else on this board – Miller, Polycarp, and matt_mcl – have spoken up to say that gobear isn’t an irredemable twat. And while I can respect your opinion on everything else, I don’t have any evidence that you’re right in this case.
Why did you even fucking bother posting that? Is that supposed to make up for everything else?
You don’t bear me any ill will? It’s not mutual, you fucking shitstain. Self-loathing gay man? Hardly. I like myself fine, thanks. I have a lot of hatred for a gay man right now, and it ain’t me. When someone calls me a faggot, or a pervert, or a deviant, I shrug it off. Because they don’t understand me, they have no way to relate. But when I come on this board, I’m completely open and trusting other people to understand with what I’m going through – some would say too open – and I admit when I’m wrong with my opinions and prejudices, and I admit when I’m learning, and I acknowledge my faults. And when someone uses that against me, instead of listening to and responding to what I’m saying, but uses that as a personal attack against me, I cannot forgive that. Especially when that person should be able to understand what a huge obstacle it is to accept yourself when everyone around you is telling you that you’re wrong just for being the way you are.
Fuck you. Fuck you, a thousand times over. You deserve no respect from me. I refuse to waste my time talking to such a fucking recalcitrant, sanctimonious, blind idiot. I warned you that you crossed the line, and gave you an opportunity to apologize and explain yourself, and you used that opportunity to heap more fucking sancitimonious bullshit on me. You deserve nothing more from me.
I will continue to speak out in favor of gay rights, but from now on, it will be with a tinge of regret that you might in some way benefit from it. Fuck you, gobear. That is the absolute worst thing that anyone could have said to me in my life right now, and not only did you say it, but you showed no remorse for it and acted as if you were the victim. Fuck you, you fucking fuck.
That is a terrible thing to say, SolGrundy. Christ, it’s just line-crossing fest in here tonight, isn’t it? I understand you’re irate, but don’t you think that’s beneath you?
You didn’t pay attention to my post above, but will you please follow a piece of advice from a sister?! Both of you need to calm down right this minute before things are said that truly can never be unsaid.
Well, I’m sorry that my comments hurt your feelings; I had no idea that you were so genuinely distraught. I’m sincerely sorry for that.
I feel bad for your hurt feelings, you are clearly genuinely upset and feeling this whole discussion more rawly than I thought. I’m very sorry that I hurt you. I will never apologize for my opinions, but I do apologize that I aired them to you in a way that was painful to you.
Thank you for your calming words, Matt and JayJay.
If Sol Grundy will listen to a sincer bit of help from a “fucking fuck,” it’s this:
Stop looking for validation from others.
I’ve noticed from the beginning of your posting history that you seem to want acceptance from others, from your co-religionists, from other gay people, from the people in your town, from posters on this board
What you have to learn is that you are your own validation. People are attracted to strength and confidence; even an asshead like Dubya succeeds because he projects unswervable confidence. I know it sounds trite, but it’s true. If you constantly depend on others’ acceptance to feel good about yourself, then your emotional well-being will always be held hostage to the opinions of others.
And don’t reveal serious vulnerabilities on a message board. I would not have been posted so harshly to you if I had had any idea that you were actually sincere about your feelings. Would you post your credit card info onthis board? Your cell-phone number? Your home address? If you wouldn’t reveal such personal information to the world, why would you open your heart, which is certainly far more precious? I get angry here sometimes and argue intensely with people, but I don’t take anything here internally.
I can take your hate because it doesn’t mean much to me, but I do take your pain seriously because I hate to see anyone suffer, especially if I’ve caused it. You can flame me, but for you own health, forget about this when you walk away from your computer. My opinions should not mean anything to you (although I will say that, having seen your pic in one of the photo threads, you don’t give yourself anywhere near enough credit in the looks department. You’re spongeworthy)
So, go ahead and hate me, I’m OK with that. But please take care of yourself and look within yourself to find your self-worth and acceptance. Be a Christian and a gay man (hell, be a Republican) on your own terms and to hell with what other Christians or gay men think you ought to be, because ultimately you will learn that you define you, and not some asshole on the Internet.
