I have far too much integrity, fundamental sense of deceny and self-respect to be a Republican anything.
You might also pick up on Martin Niemoeller’s famous statement.
If I were to “come out” here, I could point out that the one time that “love at first sight” ever happened to me was as a 42-year-old man with a 16-year-old boy. (My wife and I have known each other all our lives; our love has been consistently growing from a childhood friendship to the deep and meaningful thing that it is today.) The fact that the relationship between me and Chris was not sexual in nature is the least of irrelevancies – the impact was precisely that of falling in love. So there is no doubt in my mind what gay people can feel towards each other – and an absolute commandment in my religious views that they deserve my support and that I’m obliged by my own moral principles to give it to them. That people whose God is printed on India paper and bound in limp leather find in its contents grounds for failing to have compassion on their brothers and sisters, contrary to other parts of its contents which are by their own definition “the fundamental law of the universe” to which all other moral imperatives must be subordinated, is their problem and not mine – except that it obliges me to combat that perversion of my Lord’s commandments.
And it’s official: Saskatchewan has legalized same-sex marriage.
Meanwhile, in Texas, a state Board of Education member wants to censor textbooks because they do not in her pea brain state clearly enough the Texas legal definition of “marriage” as consisting of male/female, one each. These people are insane.
Bless them and their desire to have equality for everyone.
::: hangs head in shame :::
Unlike most Texans, I have so many reasons to hate my birth state and this, as usual, just adds fuel to the fire. Which places again were ‘swing’ so that my vote might end up being decisive rather than wasted? I am planning on moving soon. Perhaps New Mexico would be a better choice (and Ohio is out of the question – too cold). Where else is a possibility?
[On a side note: While I was in college taking educational courses required for certification to become a teacher, one of my professors claimed that there was ONE couple in East Texas solely responsible for any hardships pertaining to the adoption or revision of textbooks. I’m not sure if that is correct, but I could believe it if so. Apparently, the story goes, they single handidly could keep evolution out, ammend any existing information relating to subjects and/or opinions they felt unGodly and remove other secular references in one way or another (IE: by threats of lack of new purchases in time for the next school year if the proposed hadn’t been approved accurately, etc.) to fit their very limited interpretation of religion. I understand, but am again uncertain, that they were Evangelical in denomination. Very frightening stuff indeed. Especially when you consider the size of influence and money involved we’re talking about here.]
The Gablers. Practically a two-person textbook mafia. Their Educational Research Analysts firm is the most influential factor in Texas textbook selection, which (considering the size of the state’s population and thus their average textbook order) is a huge influence on national textbook availability.
jayjay, you rock! I’m just so glad that I wasn’t incorrectly remembering things or passing along disinformation. Yes, that’s them.
Terrifying, in an Orwellian way, isn’t it?
Yes, it is. I went through a neo-Creationist fascination in the late 80s/early 90s (not believing in it, but fascinated by the legal and rhetorical machinations the groups in question perpetrated to get “equal treatment” laws passed in the states), and the Gablers came up quite frequently.
They’re one of the reasons that biology textbooks nationwide got so weak on evolution in the 90s. Texas buys a hellacious buttload of textbooks every year and if the Gablers don’t approve, the books don’t get bought. If the books don’t get bought, the publisher eats a huge loss. So textbooks throughout the 80s and 90s were watered down so as not to offend ol’ Mel and Norma, nationwide.
Oh my freakin’ goddess what is HAPPENING around me? This is not the country I grew up in. It is changing into something very frightening.
I realize that Christians feel that same-sex marriage is morally wrong, and I acknowledge that its their right to feel that way, but what no one seems to get is that it is illegal for them to legislate this! It is unconstitutional and breaks with the fundamental idea of religious freedom that the USA was founded on. It breaks my heart. It frightens me. Why do these people hate me and my friends and my family so much? So much that they have to make our lives a crime? What did we ever do to them? Is there no way to stop this juggernaut of Christianity thats running over our government?
As far as anyone defending Christianity, SHUT UP. I’m sure you’re a nice person, but it has nothing to do with some shitty book that is full of LIES and sheer idiocy. If you managed to get some sense of morality and some sense of spiritual satisfaction from it, then you are lucky. Because no matter how you translate it, the Bible is a book filled with hate. There is nothing you can say that can convince me otherwise, because all I have to do is open the book your religion is based on and point to all the horrible things it says. If you claim your religion interprets the Bible as allegory, I call bullshit.
Christ on the crotch, what if rampant Mormonism caused everyone to legislate the wearing of traditional undergarments? And people who didn’t wear the right undergarments couldn’t be granted marriage licenses? You’d hear the screams of “Discrimination!” all the way from SF Bay to Capitol hill. But if there are enough Mormons to pass the law, the rest of us are fucked. The US government is supposed to protect people from this sort of thing, not be an instrument to its implementation.
It makes me sick that people even try to defend this. My mother says she is just too old and raised too Catholic to wrap her head around the idea, and so she voted for an amendment. I told her “You just voted for hate and discrimination. You are a bigot, mom.” It wasn’t a pretty conversation, but eventually she understood why I said that. And I understood that she is just so uncomfortable with idea of homosexuality that she wants the law in place to not have to deal with it. That is just wrong. Four or Five centuries ago, people were being burned at the fucking stake for being Protestant or Catholic, depending on who was in power. The current law is supposed to protect each of them from this sort of thing. The law in this case has failed. I can only hope that the judgement of the Supreme Court can see this when it comes to them, which it probably will very soon.
This part…
has to be one of the most accurate descriptions I’ve seen in regards to attitudes that mirror the people I know IRL. Thank you for giving me a better way to express myself about this, to them, than I normally do.
I’m afraid you have been hoodwinked. Laws exist, not to protect citizens, but to protect governments.
I’m dyin’ over here. Dyin’!
[hijack]I’m doing a research project on book banning. Barbara Parker, a journalist involved with People for the American Way in the late 70s/early 80s, spent two days with the Gablers for a story. She said that it was the most frustrating 48 hours she ever spent: they refused to talk about any issues in depth with her, repeating the same simple answers over and over. Cree-py.[/hijack]
Back on topic: there are some confusing messages coming from SSM-supporters:
- Gay marriage or civil union will have no effect on the traditional concept of marriage because it is just for legal benifits. Don’t get caught up in emotional arguments about the sanctity of marriage, etc. Just consider this from a purely legal, human-rights perspective.
vs
- This isn’t just about legal rights. This is about social acceptance, and being allowed to have my love and commitment to your partner acknowledged by society at large. By denying you the right to marry, we are confirming your status as second-class citizens and your relationships as less deserving of support than those of heteros.
What is true: 2
What you have to say in order to have any chance at 2: 1
YMMV and IMHO, of course.
And then you go on to quote a self-described Christian ranting about the sanctity of marriage and how the “Democratic Party” (read: the fags) are going about attacking everything that true Christians hold dear.
So you’re telling me there are self-described Christian groups who are speaking out against homosexuality and same-sex marriage? Get out! I thought you were just making it all up! In all my years growing up as a gay boy in the Bible Belt in a Pentacostal church and surrounded by southern Baptists, I never once heard anti-gay sentiment spoken by a Christian! Thanks for the heads-up; I’m tearing up my Bible and renouncing my religion right now.
I have no doubt that I could just as easily dig up a screed written by an extremist “gay rights activist,” the type that dismissively calls heterosexuals “breeders,” that rails against the outdated institution of marriage and how it’s oppressive and how it should be banned for everyone. Does that mean that all homosexuals think the same way? Of course not. You don’t judge an entire group by its most extremist and nutty elements. Because that’s a stereotype, and stereotypes are ignorant and hurtful.
So it’s all about the numbers, then? It’s not about the actual tenets of Christianity, it’s about what the religions “followers” do in its name?
Once again, I can turn that “logic” back on you. In the past couple of days, you’ve responded quickly to people who’ve threatened to emigrate from the United States, saying that they’re needed here to “fight.” Why is that? Haven’t we seen in the past couple of days that America is full of homophobes? America isn’t about freedom, or liberty. It’s about hate. I mean, I’m sure that there are good Americans doing their best to ensure equal rights for everyone, but the voter turnout clearly shows to that they’re not in the majority. Therefore, the United States stands for nothing more than hatred and homophobia, and you can’t in good conscience claim to be an American if you believe in equal rights.
But what about the Declaration of Independence and its bit about all men being created equal? What about the Constitution that establishes the role of government and lists the rights that all citizens have? Don’t these stand for equality and liberty? Obviously not, since it’s all about nothing more than what most of the people who call themselves Americans are campaigning for at this moment.
And I’ve been to church on Sundays, Wednesday Bible studies, and Sunday school enough to know that that’s not what makes a Christian. I can’t count the number of sermons and lessons I’ve heard that say exactly that – it’s not about the ritual, it’s not about attendance, it’s not about claiming you’re one thing and then acting another. It’s about knowing in your heart that you’re a Christian, and acting as Christ taught. You can fool your neighbors, but you can’t fool God. And you can’t use lies and fear and deceit to unfairly discriminate against a segment of the population and still claim to be Christian.
You can’t take what is about the love, honor, devotion, and commitment of two people, then reduce it to nothing more than lust, and sin, and sex, and perversion, and procreation, and cast judgement on these people and appoint yourself in charge of their happiness, and still claim to hold to the beliefs of a religion that preaches love, honor, devotion, and commitment. That would be hypocrisy, and Christ was pretty hard-line against hypocrites as well.
Have you even been to San Francisco? I hadn’t been out for ten minutes before I had at least a dozen labels applied to me. “Closet case.” “Bear.” “Cub.” “Vanilla.” Plus some others I won’t go into here. I remember in a different thread, you told me, “just don’t expect to be welcomed [into the gay community] with open arms.” I’m glad to gave me the warning, because if I had been expecting people to accept me just because I’m gay, I would’ve been in for a nasty surprise. I’m not welcome in churches? I’m not that welcome in certain bars, either, since apparently I’m no longer a “bear” after I lost so much weight. At least in the Bible Belt, people didn’t have to wear a colored handkerchief to show what denomination they belonged to.
My point is that there’s a huge difference between some vague notion of “community” and individual people and the core of what they really are. I don’t ascribe the “scene” among gays in San Francisco to homosexuals as a whole, because I recognize that what I’m seeing are a bunch of shallow, image-conscious, exclusionary jack-asses, and that doesn’t really have anything to do with being gay.
Similar to that (but of course not exactly like it, because one is an orientation and the other is a belief system), I can recognize that the people in many churches who’ll hate and/or fear me simply because I’m a homo don’t really have anything to do with being Christian. Once again, Christianity is about love, respect, living a good life, and salvation. There are those who are repulsed by me just because I’m different; those people are hateful and fearful, and that has nothing to do with Christianity, no matter how many times they go to church or how loudly they scream at revivals.
And there are those who believe that I am living a sinful life and need to find salvation, and either must remain celibate or change to a proper heterosexual “lifestyle” to be saved. I have a little bit more respect for those people, because they sincerely believe they are acting according to God’s will, but I don’t believe they truly understand what it means to be a homosexual and how important love and honor and companionship and just union are to human beings. To those people, I can only say that I disagree and I can’t repent for my homosexuality, because I don’t believe that it’s a sin.
And again, I never once said that the majority of self-described Christians aren’t opposed to homosexuality, and it’s wrong for you to suggest that I did. I’m not deluded at all, thanks for your concern. No, it’s not easy to hold true to your beliefs when so many other people are preaching lies and hate and trying to corrupt everything that you know is true. But it doesn’t require self-delusion, and anyone who says that it does is showing me great disrespect. It requires faith, and understanding, and compassion.
I don’t speak for any denomination, I speak for myself, and for my religious beliefs. And I will speak up when someone says something untruthful and disrespectful about my religion. It’s as simple as that. When you say “Christianity is about hate,” you are wrong.
You say that when you speak out against “Christianity,” that you aren’t infringing on people’s freedom of religion. You are. Obviously, it’s not on the same level as a referendum or a proposition or a law against gay rights. But it’s still an attack. And when so many opponents of gay rights are trying to justify their bigotry by using fear, and claiming that the “gay agenda” is trying to force something on them that goes against what their religion stands for, your statements play right into that and give them even more fuel for their feeble campaign.
If someone goes into a thread and says, “Homosexuals are lustful perverts and deviants,” or “Homosexuality is a lifestyle choice,” or “Love the sinner, hate the sin,” it’s gay-bashing. It’s not violent. It’s not a legal infringement of their rights. But it’s still wrong, and it’s still damaging. It’s divisive, it fosters a black vs. white, us vs. them mentality that’s completely counter-productive.
You’ve told people who’ve threatened to emigrate to stop talking like that. That America needs them to stay and fight, even though a majority of the people in the country have taken the wrong path. That America stands for more than fear, and hatred, and war, and bigotry, and prejudice. I think that’s true. I think my religion needs me to stay and fight as well. It’s not about hate, it’s about love. And I’m not going to let anyone – whether he’s a bible-thumping Christian or a hard-line atheist – say that it’s anything else.
No, I won’t SHUT UP. You claim you understand religious freedom? I call bullshit. You just showed my religion great disrespect, you told me I’m wrong, you told me not to say what I believe. You don’t understand what Christianity is about? Fine, you have the right to believe or disbelieve whatever you want. Just don’t presume to tell other people that they don’t understand what it’s about, either. THAT is what freedom of religion is about, it’s not just freedom FROM religion.
[quote=Ghanima]
Four or Five centuries ago, people were being burned at the fucking stake for being Protestant or Catholic, depending on who was in power./QUOTE]
And normally, I would think that it’s a damn good thing that we’ve had four or five centuries to evolve as a society so we can recognize that that’s wrong, and the way to fair treatment for everyone wasn’t just to get your side into power, but to come up with a society where all sides could coexist happily and peacefully.
Every single time I get hope that we’re progressing as a species, that people are learning from what happened in the past so we don’t have to go through all the same bullshit again, I’m disappointed. We’ve learned nothing from religious oppression. We’ve learned nothing from the Revolutionary War and the idea of relgious freedom. We’ve learned nothing from the wars and terrorist attacks in Ireland. We’ve learned nothing from the civil rights movement. We’re doomed to keep going on for eternity, always fighting the same battles over and over again, always picking one group to single out and dismiss or oppress, learning absolutely nothing.
I’m going back to bed.
Let’s see.
According to George W. Bush and people like Bricker, what the majority says, goes, even if it removes rights from the minority. (Hey, where have we heard that before?)
According to Ghanima and his ilk, what the majority of believers happen to think becomes dogma, even if it flat contradicts the principles of that religion as taught by its Founder.
According to the resident liberal Democrats, the reason we lost is that we weren’t vocal enough about what the problem is.
Apparently, the punchline to this entire stupid practical joke called America is, you were fed a bunch of lies calculated to make you not cause problems. Now the truth is, you’re not entitled to freedom.
Move over, Sol. It’s time to give up. Sinclair Lewis said it best sixty years back – and nobody listened. Now the chickens are coming home to roost, and it’s so Fabian that nobody notices.
Be careful what you ask for, America; you might get it! :mad:
Yes, it’s about the numbers, even a self-hating closet case like you should be able to figure that out. And, yes, it’s about actions, not faith. James chapter 2, verses 19-20
And I John,
And yoiur analogy about leaving America is ridiculous–leaving a church is easy, finding a country is exceedingly difficult.
No True Scotman, huh?
Yes, I’ve been to San Francisco several times. Givne the unpleasant way you convey yourself on this board, I suspect that not being accepted beause of your personality, not your weight. I’vve been to the bars in SoMa and the Castro (mmmm, Daddy’s!) and never saw any of what you describe.
I’m sorry that you have so many issues with self-acceptance, but you really need to work on fixing your internalized homophobia before you can discuss this rationally.
Calmly, Poly. After my initial 24 hours of wanting to rip the heads off of puppies and kick grandmas across the street, I decided that everybody gets a free week off of me. I’ll argue facts and make witty asides in these threads, but I refuse to get angry about anything anyone says at this point. Once everyone calms down, I’ll go back to holding them accountable as normal citizens are.
So take a deep breath, and calm yourself. It’s temporary.
For the record, Polycarp, Ghanima is a woman, and a very nice and respectful woman at that. I’m not going to for one second claim to speak for her, just say that I’m assuming that this is the Pit and we’re all still a little pissed off.
And gobear, you really, seriously, crossed the mother-fucking line there. To take everything I took the time to say and respond with nothing more than Bible verses and calling me a self-loathing closet case. I can’t type anymore right now because my fucking hands are shaking with rage, so I’ll just leave it there and see if you want to take any time to explain yourself.
Not cool, gobear, and way below the way you usually conduct yourself. I hope this is just post-election depression talking, because I’m really going to be disappointed if it’s going to be the new standard level for you in this post-11/2 world.
Off-topic, but just replace “gay” with “heterosexual” and you’ll see how I feel about the het scene in SF. 
I didn’t expect you to shut up. I just hoped you would (collectively.) And I want to make it clear that I would never approve of any legislation that prevents people from worshipping in their own way. I can’t and won’t show Christians respect, but I would not block them from living their lives in the way they choose. That’s a lot more than most Christians would give to YOU. A whole lot of them don’t even want you in their church. How you can defend them, I truly can’t understand.