Gay men unable to form appropriate male friendships

[Kirkland1244]

*Originally posted by lel *
Kirkland1244, I’m over here waving jarbabyj’s “We’re not all like that” banner.

But your church is. And by being a member of that church, and financially supporting it, you are backing and supporting its doctrinally-codified hatred of homosexuals and its efforst to ensure that we are forever treated like second class citizens. Oh, but you’re all nice. Thanks. I remember that the next time I here about the SBC out there doing “gods work” and treating homosexuals like dirt.

I am sorry to hear of the pain you have suffered in your friendship with Todd, but as a semi-brainwashed Southern Baptist fundie myself, I have to say that that behavior is not at all in line with the love of Jesus, whom Southern Baptists follow.

The one they follow when your church works against anti-descrimination laws, even those that would bar employers from firing people just for being gay, when your leaders go around calling us sodomites, and your convention kicks out member churches that have the gall to be nice to homosexuals (even though kicking out churches like that goes against the SBC’s charter)?

There are few groups in this country as actively and unanimously anti-gay as your church.

Todd is the perfect example, the perfect personification, of everything your church teaches about homosexuality.

You may be a fine person, but you are supporting an organization that would as soon stone me as let me teach in a public school. Isn’t that just a bit two-faced?

Kirk

[gobear]

There are few groups in this country as actively and unanimously anti-gay as your church.

Wait a sec… you know nothing about Lel’s church. Remember that Baptists are congregationl, not diocesan. Each church is an independent entity, and the SBC is a gathering of independent churches, not a bunch of dioceses run in a hierarchy.

While I agree 100 percent about the loathsomeness of the SBC leadership, I got no squawk against individual Baptists of good will, or their churches if they reject the SBC’s antigay bullshit.

What reall pisses me off is that I have put in the postion of defending churches lately, which is not doing my raving anticlerical street cred any good.

[Kirkland1244]

Yes, the Baptists are congregational, in theory, but in practice, this congregationalism has slid in the past two decades. The SBC and its state-associations now commonly force out any church not towing the line on gay issues. Look at the the University Baptist Church in Austin, TX, for an example.

Any church thats a member of the SBC also contributes financially to the SBC, helping to fund the loathsome leaders and their nationally-organizes anti-gay actions, so these member churches bear at least partial responsibility for these anti-gay actions by the SBC.

Kirk

[lel]

A bit of disclosure: while I have been a member of 3 different SBC churches in the past, I’ve been attending a non-denominational Protestant church for the past 8-9 months, but have not officially joined this church. Although most of my monetary donations are through the church I currently attend, the vast majority of my ministry time has been devoted to doing work and study through various SBC institutions and parachurch organizations. In that sense, I’m probably contributing more through SBC institutions and organizations than through my local church, and as such I personally identify both as a non-denominational Protestant and a Southern Baptist.

Kirkland, one of the reasons that I am working through this arrangement is connected with some of the public stances, such as the article above, that the Southern Baptist Convention takes on homosexuality. I feel torn. I could not support SB causes at all because I don’t agree with the way they are handling relations with homosexuals. On the other hand, I could work within the organization any way I could to promote showing love and kindness towards homosexuals, as opposed to promoting hatred and unkindness towards people. (Note that I did not say anything about working towards changing the SB belief that homosexual acts are sinful according to the Bible. In this respect, I’m rather torn. I’ve seen Biblical scholarship which points towards feasible alternate interpretations of passages in Leviticus and Romans which on the surface appear to condemn homosexual acts. Not feeling qualified to evaluate such passages myself (not saying that others aren’t qualified to interpret them themselves, just that I myself do not feel qualified to do so), I feel that the only thing I can say with integrity is that I don’t know if homosexual acts are sinful or not.) While the idea of uniting with an organization that is anti-gay might seem abhorrent, there’s the alternate idea of working from within to promote positive actions towards homosexuals.

Gobear, while the SBC leadership is anti-gay, I’ve only heard one mention of homosexuality in a local Southern Baptist environment, which was to the effect of expressing concern at the hypothetical idea that a gay person might want to become involved in that organization. I don’t know about the experiences of all Southern Baptists and/or former Southern Baptists, but I am not personally aware of any local SB congregations which have made any public declarations about homosexuality. Granted, Kirkland also has a valid point in that SBC churches have been forced out of at least state-level associations because they were affirming churches.

Under any circumstances, I must simply become more active in showing and promoting love and kindness towards homosexuals no matter where I am at the time.

[Kirkland1244]

And by being there, you lend numerical support to the enemy. Thanks but no thanks. Let the Southern Baptist Convention rot in Hell, thats what it deserves. To support it, even when you realize that it is a haven of bigotry and malice, is vulgar. Why don’t you join the Klan and push for Civil Rights while you’re at it?

[jayjay]

Not to expand the argument here, but you do realize that what you’re saying is equivalent to telling a Catholic that he or she affirms child molestation because they don’t immediately dissociate themselves with the Church, right?

[Kirkland1244]

The Catholic Church does not doctrinally support child molestation. The Southern Baptist Convention has codified anti-gay bigotry in its doctrinal statements. Gay hating is a core teaching of the Southern Baptist cult.

[lel]

Actually, I would call belief in the Bible and a commitment to the spreading the idea that one can have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ to be the core beliefsof the SBC. While they do condemn homosexuality, I don’t see the part about hating homosexual persons.

[Kirkland1244]

Your demonination has made it its avowed goal to prevent laws protecting gays from job descrimination (hell, they want job descrimination, they want to bar gays from the military and from teaching, last I heard), they stand in favor of the bigotted “marriage” laws that give you straightfolk 350+ special rights that gay couples are denied, it is against hate crime laws that would give harsher sentences to people who bash gay people with baseball bats because they’re gay (there are good reasons to oppose hate crime laws, but you never hear the SBC bring it up except as another way to bash gays). And of course, your beautiful church casts out any member churches that treat gays like decent human beings.

If the amount of effort your leaders have put into keeping gays second class citizens in this country had been put to a worthwhile purpose, like feeding the poor or healing the sick, you know, the kinds of things the respectable Christian churches spend billions of dollars and countless man hours on, I might actually respect it.

Southern Baptist leaders have also supported the bullshit ex-gay movement, which is perhaps the most dangerous and evil concoction any fundamentalist has ever produced. They also prattle on about the mythical gay lifestyle. There’s no such fucking thing.

Didn’t they even spit all over the Disney Corporation a few years back, at one of the big bi-annual clan rallies, for having the temerity to treat their gay employees as valued human beings by giving their partners benefits? Vulgar. Absolutely vulgar. The entire organization.

Kirk

[lel]

Again, the question – can a reasonable Christian work inside a Christian organization which condemns homosexuality with the belief that its leaders should well put more money into food or medical programs instead of speaking out against homosexuality? I’m personally inclined to say yes, but that’s a matter of disagreement, of course. I do want to look at a few things, though.

*Originally posted by Kirkland1244 *
they stand in favor of the bigotted “marriage” laws that give you straightfolk 350+ special rights that gay couples are denied

I hate doing the “cite” thing, but I am curious about what these 350+ special rights are.

it is against hate crime laws that would give harsher sentences to people who bash gay people with baseball bats because they’re gay (there are good reasons to oppose hate crime laws, but you never hear the SBC bring it up except as another way to bash gays).

While I’m guessing nobody will think that the SBC condones bashing gay people with baseball bats, I feel compelled to state specifically that they don’t. (See Matthew 22:34-40, the part about loving your neighbor. I would say that bashing someone with a baseball bat solely due to sexual orientation is not loving.)

Didn’t they even spit all over the Disney Corporation a few years back, at one of the big bi-annual clan rallies, for having the temerity to treat their gay employees as valued human beings by giving their partners benefits? Vulgar. Absolutely vulgar. The entire organization.

Ah yes, the Disney boycott. I asked some people at the SBC church I attended at the time if they were going to participate in the Disney boycott. They kind of shrugged it off and said they weren’t boycotting Disney.

[Polycarp]

When I read Tim Wilkins was from North Carolina, I immediately thought of Polycarp. What is it that makes homosexuality such a major issue for Christians in that corner of the world ?

Just for the record, on the average of once a week I drive directly past the institution where Mr. Wilkins operates in the course of delivering a neighbor who works in a plaza in Wake Forest to his jobsite.

My personal reasons for being outspoken on the issue are on record in several threads here and on the Pizza Parlor, and I won’t rehash them again, but feel free to check them out when the hamsters are enjoying a little slack time.

In addition, as a sincere Christian, I feel that it is incumbent on me to challenge my Christian brothers and sisters to live up to the commitment they made to Jesus Christ as Lord of their lives to behave in the manner that He commanded – and that commitment does not include fraudulently informing the world that Hastur, gobear, Esprix, Freyr, matt_mcl, andygirl, Homebrew and a few dozen other friends who are gay are in a vast left wing conspiracy (trademark pending) to destroy the institution of marriage and corrupt the youth of our nation, etc.

Nuff said?

[Esprix]

Why do these debates always turn religious? It makes the Gay Guy sad.

And as to the OP, is it ok for me to form inappropriate relationships with straight men, then? <heh heh heh>

Esprix

[Esprix]

Originally posted by lel

I hate doing the “cite” thing, but I am curious about what these 350+ special rights are.

How about the General Accouting Office of the United States? They found just over 1,000 “benefits” (some beneficial, some detrimental) that were directly linked to a person’s marital status.

Oh, and the “love the sinner, hate the sin” line is obnoxious at best (as is the “being gay is ok, as long as you don’t do those gay things”). Do you recall my infamous GD thread, “Love the Christian, hate Christianity?” It sounds as ridiculous to us as it does to you.

Esprix

[Kirkland1244]

Again, the question – can a reasonable Christian work inside a Christian organization which condemns homosexuality with the belief that its leaders should well put more money into food or medical programs instead of speaking out against homosexuality?

You cannot work with in an anti-gay “church” and aid the work of such a disreputable organization while still claiming to love gays or whatever it is you claim you do. Your presence validates their actions. If you’re really a reasonable person, follow the lead of the good man Jimmy Carter, and walk away from the most destructive religious organization in American history.

You want to work from within to help the SBC? I say let the SBC rot. Let it consume itself in a red hot flame of lies about gays, and Biblical literalism nonsense. That’s what it deserves, and the sooner it goes under, the sooner the world can begin to heal from 15 or so decades of mistreatment by that horrid organization.

I hate doing the “cite” thing, but I am curious about what these 350+ special rights are.

Esprix mentioned the GAO, which is where I believe I saw such a list before, too, or at least an article about it. In any case, here’s a site with just a taste of all the special rights married folks get but I cannot. Remember, two straights can meet one day, get married the next and have access to all these instantly. I could meet a man and be involved with him, live with him, and be married in every sense but legal, for eighty years, and never be treated this well by the government and other organizations.

This site mentions the number “160,” though I’ve always heard 350-something. Most likely quibbling on what is and is not a “benefit.” Or perhaps I’m wrong (though Esprix’s GAO statement said 1,000 or so “effects”).

Legal Marriage Benefits

While I’m guessing nobody will think that the SBC condones bashing gay people with baseball bats, I feel compelled to state specifically that they don’t.

Ah, you don’t condone it. How lovely. I must say, I love all those sermons you hear from Southern Baptist ministers that decry the bigotry in the states towards gays.

At the 2000 Convention, your leaders paraded she-bitch extraordinaire Laura Schelshinger (who cares how her name is spelled), who has called gays “genetic mistakes,” and whose radio show sounded better in the original German.

And some baseball bats are metaphorical. the SBC is one of the largest supporters of the Exodus Ministries cult, which takes decent gay people, brainwashes them, traumatizes them and forces them back into the closet as “ex-gays.” Frankly, I’d rather have my head crushed with Wonderboy than go back to the closet, so this is even worse.

And then there are the “decent christians” your “church” produces, like my former-best-friend Todd. Todd has a month to come around, or he’s gonna find that once he does, I won’t be there. Your church, your cult, took my best friend away from me, and I will never forgive any of you who side with it for that.

(See Matthew 22:34-40, the part about loving your neighbor. I would say that bashing someone with a baseball bat solely due to sexual orientation is not loving.)

Yes, but supporting the Ex-gay ministries IS?

If this is how you “love the sinner,” remind me never to ask you for a favor.

Kirk

[lel]

In addition, as a sincere Christian, I feel that it is incumbent on me to challenge my Christian brothers and sisters to live up to the commitment they made to Jesus Christ as Lord of their lives to behave in the manner that He commanded – and that commitment does not include fraudulently informing the world that Hastur, gobear, Esprix, Freyr, matt_mcl, andygirl, Homebrew and a few dozen other friends who are gay are in a vast left wing conspiracy (trademark pending) to destroy the institution of marriage and corrupt the youth of our nation, etc.

I don’t know if this was addressed to myself or not, but for the record, I do not believe that gay people are in a vast left wing conspiracy to destroy marriage and corrupt youth.

Oh, and the “love the sinner, hate the sin” line is obnoxious at best (as is the “being gay is ok, as long as you don’t do those gay things”). Do you recall my infamous GD thread, “Love the Christian, hate Christianity?” It sounds as ridiculous to us as it does to you.

For the record, I find the whole “love the sinner, hate the sin” thing to be hypocritical myself. In addition, I’m in the middle of reading your Love the Christian, hate Christianity thread now, Esprix.

As for the cite, I just wondered how they were counting benefits, that’s all. Speaking for the United States, if you count every individual state statute where a benefit accrues to married couples that does not accrue to homosexual couples, 350 doesn’t seem out of line at all. However, a lot of marital benefits are denied to homosexual couples in all or a great majority of states (such as those pointed out by Kirkland), and I was just curious to see how they were enumerated. I’m not denying that there are benefits that accrue to married couples which are not granted to homosexual couples.

You want to work from within to help the SBC? I say let the SBC rot. Let it consume itself in a red hot flame of lies about gays, and Biblical literalism nonsense. That’s what it deserves, and the sooner it goes under, the sooner the world can begin to heal from 15 or so decades of mistreatment by that horrid organization

The problem is that the SBC is in no great danger of rotting anytime soon.

Remember, two straights can meet one day, get married the next and have access to all these instantly. I could meet a man and be involved with him, live with him, and be married in every sense but legal, for eighty years, and never be treated this well by the government and other organizations.

Let us hope that the government then permits homosexual couples to get married soon. Again, I don’t feel qualified to interpret these Biblical passages dealing with homosexual acts, but I don’t believe that has anything to do with preventing homosexual couples from enjoying the same rights as heterosexual couples.

Ah, you don’t condone it. How lovely. I must say, I love all those sermons you hear from Southern Baptist ministers that decry the bigotry in the states towards gays.

Well, I’ve never heard a sermon having anything to do with gays, pro, con or whatever.

At the 2000 Convention, your leaders paraded she-bitch extraordinaire Laura Schelshinger (who cares how her name is spelled), who has called gays “genetic mistakes,” and whose radio show sounded better in the original German.

It sounds even better with the radio off.

And some baseball bats are metaphorical. the SBC is one of the largest supporters of the Exodus Ministries cult, which takes decent gay people, brainwashes them, traumatizes them and forces them back into the closet as “ex-gays.” Frankly, I’d rather have my head crushed with Wonderboy than go back to the closet, so this is even worse.

Ah yes, the ex-gay movement. Certainly an area where working for reform in the SBC is a good thing.

And then there are the “decent christians” your “church” produces, like my former-best-friend Todd. Todd has a month to come around, or he’s gonna find that once he does, I won’t be there. Your church, your cult, took my best friend away from me, and I will never forgive any of you who side with it for that.

Please forgive me if I’m getting too personal, but were his actions perpetuated by himself alone, or did his church prompt him to do it?

[matt_mcl]

I do not believe that gay people are in a vast left wing conspiracy to destroy marriage and corrupt youth.

I do.

sub[/sub]

[jayjay]

matt, shhh! Ixnay on the onspiracycay! We’re not afraid to take back your toaster oven and shred your Friends of Judy membership card, dammit.

[EchoKitty]

Kirkland said (referring to his lost relationship with his best friend), “Gay men have problems forming friendships with heterosexuals? No. Though heterosexuals may have a problem, if they’re brainwashed fundie bigots.”

I am in no way defending the statement that gay men have trouble developing relationships, but I have a gay friend who came out to us (the girls) a couple years ago. She was so happy to finally come to terms with it and we were all very supportive of her. Then she found her partner and she hasn’t returned a call since. It has been years. We’re hurt and confused. Why did she dump us?

All I’m saying is that your friend may have another reason for disappearing (especially when you say he lost contact with the rest of the gang). I know we didn’t do anything wrong with our friend…I hope she’s just adjusting to her new life.

[Homebrew]

Same thing happens with straight relationship, EchoKitty. When some people get involved in serious romantic relationships they lose sight of their other friendships.

There’s a humourous song by Max Stalling about it called “Runnin’ Buddy”

*Well we never just go drink beer like we used to
Road hunt, shoot signs or shoot the breeze
Every weekend he loads up and goes to see her
I guess that old gal’s just way more fun than me.

Hey runnin’ buddy what’ll you say to a twelve pack
Hey runnin’ buddy whatcha say to settin’ some lines
Hey runnin’ buddy don’t you remember the good times we had
Before you hooked up with that San Antonio girl
*

[EchoKitty]

Yeah, I know that…but a phone call once in a while would be nice. I don’t run with the girls like I used to either (hangin’ with the ol’ man and doing married stuff mostly), but she also gave up her son to her parents (which I thought sent the wrong message to the kid). It leads me to believe she’s conflicted somehow. Like she can’t meld the two parts of her life together. She’s also Catholic.