Gay People...

Great Debates
21

Well, I don’t think there is a gay gene that gets passed around. Much more likely would be errors in transcribing the gene during the development of the gene. Think about how many billions of replications occur, even in just the early stages, and then think about the possibilities that something could go haywire.

My personal opinion is that it is something psychological that occurs during growing up time, similar to why some people find different types of people attractive, but on a much more intense scale. But it’s still not a choice, and not something that someone can really change their mind about.

22

I’m glad you brought this up, because I’d like to clarify something I said in my previous post. When I said, “We’ve gotten married, had kids,” I did not mean to imply that gay people don’t want children just as much as straight people. It’s harder to do, but many people manage it.

Besides this, who hasn’t had an old maiden aunt somewhere back in the family tree, or that 2nd cousin who never got married? I have several of these that I knew nothing about when I was growing up. If there is an actual gene involved, I’m sure that my parents carry it, although they’re both heterosexual. As far as I know, that is. :wink:

Thanks, bnorton, for the link. Just call me Our Lady of Redundancy. At least I’m in good company.

I agree completely, kirk280980. I wouldn’t change the person I’ve become, the friends I’ve known, and the path of spiritual discovery I’ve had.

23

Well, that is really sort of my question, in a sense: I have always heard that what I find attractive in women (plentiful breasts, good complexion, nice teeth, etc.) are the factors that (subconsiously) tell me the woman in question is a) a healthy, potential mate and b) will be able to bear healthy children. In other words: guys find women’s ability to have children attractive. In girls, I hear it is the same: girls like broad shoulders and narrow hips, the ‘strength’ and ‘thrusting power’ suggest the ability to pregnate and protect a mate.

I think I recall reading this in a book by a Desmond guy, ‘The Naked Ape’, or something like that. Fascinating, it was.

Anyway, in gays, it would appear that this ‘ability to have kids’ factor is kind of thrown out the window, yeah? So I have always wondered what the underlying factor was behind what gays found attractive in other guys. I have had guys drool over my legs and butt (I played semi-pro tennis way back when) but I personally never understood the attraction <g>

24

Dragon Ash, the freak-out thing works both ways. The idea of having sex with a woman turns my stomach and makes my skin crawl. I know that sounds extreme, but it’s just the way it is. It’s completely alien to me. Either way, it’s all academic anyway - if such a situation did come up, Mr Floppy would soon put an end to things before they even begun.

A couple of years ago, a girl in a nightclub grabbed my crotch and made a suggestive remark. Most guys would love that, but I just felt sick and ended up going home. Think what it would feel like if another guy squeezed your ass and winked at you, and you’ll know where I’m coming from.

25

Doesn’t sound extreme to me. I mean, the idea of going down on another guy’s knob… sort of makes my stomach turn as well.

Although I have heard that technically, most guys could give a better gummer than a girl, just because we probably know what feels good. But… ugh, let’s not go there.

26

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Dragon Ash *
Anyway, in gays, it would appear that this ‘ability to have kids’ factor is kind of thrown out the window, yeah?

I don’t think straight people are really checking each other out as potential breeding stock, either, unless they’re just looking for sperm donors. I personally never understood the attraction between Melinda Gates & Bill. :confused: Thank goodness I don’t have to.

Well, it sounds like you’re making progress.

27

Lord, I’m not even needed for these discussions anymore.

Warms the cockles of my 'eart, it does… :wink:

Esprix

28

Well, I didn’t say people checked people out as potential breeding stock on purpose. But, according to research I have read, that about sums up the subconsious aspect of why we find particular people/things/traits attractive.

I don’t know, maybe I’m wrong. I was once, before, you know.

29

Hmm. I tend to become flamebait, but I’ll post my observations.

How is it not a choice? Race is not a choice, but lifestyle is. When I was a kid I hated broccoli, but now I love it and crave it! It’s a preference, a sexual preference. Now, I could declare that liking broccoli was a genetic trait that I was born with in order to get broccoli-haters to accept my lifestyle, but I would like to give people more credit than that.

I am a non-sexual heterosexual (meaning one who chooses not to have sex, virtually asexual but enjoys a good auto parts calendar with cheerleaders reclining on the hoods of Ferraris…Mmmm, cheerleaders on the hoods of Ferraris). Anyway, the gay “lifestyle” is very appealing because society now embraces it. American culture is almost being sympathetic to the gay community to make up for the hate crimes that happened in the past (and sometimes still happen today by extremists). Now I could say that I’m gay and probably have more friends to hang out with (I know a number of gays and they tend to ooze friendliness), but I’d be choosing that “lifestyle” only for that purpose, but it’s still a choice.

Now, if you’re talking about “gay” as strictly what people want to perform regarding sexual acts then these people are pretty twisted, but in that same breath I’d say the same for over 99% of heterosexuals. I can control my sexuality, which is what makes it a choice. If a person can’t control themselves sexually (a.k.a. it’s not a choice) then that scares the hell out of me.

30

**Dale The Bold wrote:

How is it not a choice? Race is not a choice, but lifestyle is.**

Could you please define, EXACTLY what this “lifestyle” is and back that up with a few citations?

I am a non-sexual heterosexual (meaning one who chooses not to have sex, virtually asexual but enjoys a good auto parts calendar with cheerleaders reclining on the hoods of Ferraris…Mmmm, cheerleaders on the hoods of Ferraris).

Even tho you’ve decided to not have sex, you have a definite attraction to women. Could you tell us, exactly when you decided to to have this attraction to women? At what age and what influences caused this? If you’ve decided that expresing one’s self as a homosexual is a choice, then contrawise, so would heterosexuality. So, when did you make this decision?

Anyway, the gay “lifestyle” is very appealing because society now embraces it.

Then how do you explain homosexuals back in the 19th & early 20th century? There were severe fines and strict social condemnation of such acts, yet there were plenty of homosexuals around.

I can control my sexuality, which is what makes it a choice. You can control the decision to have sex or not have sex. I’d like to see you control what you’re attracted to. If it is a choice, as you maintain, can you will yourself to be attracted to men? If so, please demonstrate.

31

Well, according to the Gay-o-meter I rank at 32% gay…

The UK’s Channel 4 recently published the results of the so-called “[urlhttp://www.channel4.com/gaycensus/”]Gay Census" and among its findings was the nugget that more gay men than lesbians believed that they had been “born gay”

From The gay.com website

On the other side of the coin - ther percentages for whom it was an “active choice” were much lower, around 2% for men and 5% for women (no cite I’m afraid - and I am remembering from the TV presentation of the findings, so the figures could be inaccurate)

Gp

32

You’re confusing a gay lifestyle with being gay. They are two different things. Being gay means that you have a (primary) attraction to members of the same sex. A gay lifestyle means - in its broadest sense - somehow acting on that attraction. Given that, I suppose you could claim that a gay lifestyle is a choice, but you can’t make that claim for simply being gay.

Ultimately I’m with Playdeaux and Stoid. Who gives a rat’s ass?

Actually, Dale, you present an interesting case. We often talk about heterosexuals and homosexuals and occasionally mention bi-sexuals, but almost never asexuals. I suspect that there is an asexual/hyper-sexual scale that follows a typical bell curve, and you happen to be at the low end.

Hmmm… that leads to all sorts of interesting topics for this board, like “Would you rather be asexual or hyper-sexual?”

33

And what of the people who have said they “changed”?
A deacon at my former church has done so.
I’ve ehard of others.
Are they ALL lying?
In denial?
I can remember liking boys since I was about 5 years old.
I didn’t decide to, just like I never decided to love chocolate; its just me.

34

Exceptionally controversial question, Vanilla.

Polemicists on both sides of the fence maintain stances that are not founded in properly researched studies but are based on anecdotal, theological, or quasi-humanistic doctrine.

Best answer I can give, based on my reading, is this:

One can change the category of people one is sexually attracted to, over time. Few mature women who thought at age 13 that certain of their classmates and several kids a year or two older were hot still have a yen for 13-15-year-old boys.

Given moral imperatives against homosexual behavior and feelings in a given belief structure, it is quite possible for a bisexual to condition himself or herself to believe that the repression of same-sex attraction is God’s gift of change, retaining the opposite-sex attraction, which is “good.”

The handful of ex-gay people I’ve been in communication with in one way or another generally (memory says unanimously, but I’ll leave that open) say that they still feel same-sex desire but “are able to conquer it by the grace of God.” Take that for what you will.

I suspect that a Kinsey-6 homosexual would be able to, at least temporarily, repress all desire on the same self-conditioning basis.

The vast majority of gay and bisexual persons who have “tried to change” have failed miserably, including those who used such things as electric shock therapy. And in that recent study of graduates of an ex-gay program, 66% considered themselves “cured” and 34% had, pardon the expression, fallen back into homosexuality.

My conclusions: Yeah, it’s probably possible. But a long range program, with scant chance of success in any given individual case.

I’d welcome feedback from the gay posters who care to comment.

35

Oh, and Dale? You’re mixing apples and oranges, and denying that any fruit is orange because you’re holding an apple. Those who self-identify as “gay” are not saying that because they are currently in the process of making love to another person of the same sex (at least usually; those who take breaks from sex to announce their gayness have their own set of problems! ;)). They’re saying this because those they are attracted to are of the same sex as themselves. Orientation, not behavior or “lifestyle choice,” is what’s at question. Otherwise your typical 13-year-old boy, horny whenever he hears the word “girl” much less sees one, cannot be called heterosexual, because none of the girls have consented to do the dirty with him yet.

Clear?

36

:eek: Good god, what do you do with that broccoli?

37

Well, Polycarp answered this better than I. But I would like to add that the founders of the American ex-gay “movement” were two men who later came out, and were married in a commitment ceremony. The most recent leader was caught in a gay bar, though he claimed to be there “just to use the bathroom.”

It’s not surprising the ex-gay movement refuses to publish statistics. They wouldn’t support their cause. That movement has spawned another one of ex-ex-gays, who tell horror stories of the brainwashing they were subjected to.

From personal experience, I’ve known quite a few men who “tried to go straight.” Every one of them failed.

Someone brought up left-handedness. My grandmother is left-handed, but was born to an age where teachers used corporal punishment to ensure right-handedness. To this day, her writing is totally illegible, but she doesn’t feel right writing with her other hand.

Pensmanship’s one thing, but imagine that kind of a restriction placed on love and sex, major parts of the human experience, and how crippling that becomes.

**

Same here. :wink:

38

As stated, let’s not confused orientation with behavior.

Esprix

39

Well, that’s a problem only if you assume sexual orientation is a binary matter – you’re either one or the other. If you think of sexual orientation as points on a sliding scale (homosexuality at one end, heterosexuality at the other), then it’s not hard to imagine bisexuals are simply folks who are in the middle.

Many popular porno movies have plots where the women’s “sexual preference scale” slide all over the place, for instance. :wink: And as the old joke goes, being bisexual means you double your chances of getting a date on Saturday night…

40

Speaking as someone comfortably on both the middle of the scale attraction-wise and on the asexual end of the scale otherwise… :wink: I think that a lot of people dismiss the bisexuals because they “refuse to pick a side.” (As if! Trust me, if I could become comfortably one way or the other it would make my life much easier!)

warning! generalization ahead

So, the Kinsey 1s are out there shooting at the Kinsey 3-4s because they’re just “pretending” so they don’t have to call themselves gay - and the Kinsey 6s (masquerading usually as anti-gay folks of whatever stripe) are shooting at them as an example of the “attraction is choice” arguement.

Of course, neither group considers it possible that anyone could be attracted to both because we humans have such a natural tendency to the “black-or-white” division that it’s easy to forget those greys of us out here. (insert alien joke here).

JMHO. YMMV.