Gay People...

My guess? It’s because they hate themselves so much that it makes them feel better to put down other people-for whatever reason. It might not even be about repressed homosexuality-it might, but not always. I think it’s more of a deep hatred inside them. (God, I sound like Freud).

That said, I still agree, it’s insane. I don’t get why people talk about approving or disapproving of homosexuality. What’s to approve or disapprove? I mean, what difference does it make? Why is it MY place to approve of people’s sexual orientations, desires or what have you? I would only care if it was a guy I was in love with, or if I were married and found out my husband was gay. Other than that, non-issue as far as I’m concerned.

Um, you got your zeroes and sixes confused there. :slight_smile:

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Um. Actually, there is a group of people who claimed they chose to be gay (and no, I’m not talking about the “ex-gays”). They have a website called Queer by Choice. They provided legit reasons for <i>choosing</i> to be gay. I guess different people experience sexuality in different ways. So it’s not fair for one person to speak for homosexuals as a group and say “No, we don’t choose the way we are.” Some gays might disagree. <i>I</i> for one didn’t <i>choose</i> to be gay; it just felt natural. But I’m not about to speak for other people; I can only speak for myself and my own experiences. Also, why don’t people ever think about heterosexuality in the same way? No one ever asks if straights chose their sexual orientation. Besides, why is determining the cause so important??? I’m sure everyone has more important things to think about…

Really, the whole “choice” debate boils down to politics.

If Joe Average thinks that gay people are making an active decision about being sapphically or homosexually inclined, and if they think that said inclination is icky, they’re more likely to have an irrational fear/hatred of gay people. They’re also more likely to vote against equal rights and support those who do.

If people think it to be genetic, it for whatever reason adds some credence to the “we’re just people too” arguement. It reeks of “pity the poor queers because they’re made that way,” but whatever.

I’ve heard of them. If they want to say that, fine for them. It does tend to undermine the movement, but if they’re bent on saying that they made the choice…

My one comment is that it would go against intuition for people who weren’t somewhat inclined to end up that way, even if they didn’t admit it.

Strangely enough, though they claim to be queer by choice, many say the are NOT able to be straight by choice…

Once I read THAT, I stopped reading.
http://www.queerbychoice.com/turnhetero.html

Urk! Oops! I was thinking about something in The Best Little Boy In the World

Not that that’s any excuse.

Mea maxima culpa.

:slight_smile:

To try and clarify an earlier point, sexual attraction is very dynamic as a person experiences life. I had my first crush in third grade, but I am no longer attracted to third grade girls. In the same way, I used to think blondes were more attractive, now I prefer brunettes. These examples of changes are very small ones, but it would be possible to go through a dramatic change in preferences, or to have your first experience be unique (developing your first crush on a same gendered classmate for example). The idea of being born “that way” creates division. We all develop into sexual beings with the same potential for diversity. We are all born this way. Many things may influence what we are attracted to and we may not even be aware of all of them. I don’t know which things I will be sexually attracted to thirty years from now, but I doubt that it’s pre-determined. I also think that I have a pretty decent control over this. I could convince myself to find a certain thing attractive and get to the point where I have associated something with sexuality and, thus, change my sexual preference. At this point, it doesn’t seem worth it to prove a point.

Now, it has been brought up that there are varying degrees of sex drive among people. I admit that I would fall low on that scale, being closer to “asexual” than the average male, but I have been working on getting myself more associated with sex so that it seems more appealing, and it has been working but only because I choose to work at it. I can’t flip a switch and expect to become more sexual, so the changes are subtle and gradual. Changing one’s sexual preference would not be an easy task and there isn’t much of a practical reason to try to alter it, even in a culture that would heavily ostracize people because of it. Everyone has sexual fantasies and most of them are probably not even possible to achieve. You could teach yourself to abandon a fantasy, but even under force, no one can touch those fantasies and change them except for yourself and there is rarely a logical reason to do so.

I find it odd that so many people are bewildered when a person changes their sexuality or preference. This goes so far that some beleive that “ex-gays” are just faking. It seems to me that they have mentally trained themselves to do as I described above. That’s great for them if they can make that decision and follow it through, but don’t claim that they are gays living in denial, because then someone could use that argument against you. I have a friend that used to talk about sexy women all the time and years later announced that he was gay. I saw that it was coming because the gradual changes were evident, but I’d never claim he was denying his heterosexuality. I also celebrated his “coming out” because he was finally past the point of confusion and adjustment. He never woke up and said “I think I shall begin a quest to become gay,” it was all very subconscious. I should point out that this debate should remain separate fom religious issues as well because that often results in “only Jesus can free you from your sexuality” ideology when, in fact, only you can be the ruler of your sexuality (the master of your domain). Your sexuality is part of who you are, but it changes as you change and there is no “wrong” or “right” when defining one’s self.

Just wanted to say to itsGOTtobegroovy…

Welcome to the boards!

Oh, and just in case someone gets confused-I’m not indifferent to discrimination against gays, nor do I feel indifferent about the fact that gays are often denied rights-like marriage, certain insurance benefits, what have you.

I mean, I’m indifferent if someone is gay or straight. I feel there are much more interesting things to think about in this world.

**Dale The Bold wrote:

I also think that I have a pretty decent control over this. I could convince myself to find a certain thing attractive and get to the point where I have associated something with sexuality and, thus, change my sexual preference. At this point, it doesn’t seem worth it to prove a point.**

I disagree. And what you’re saying is pretty much contrary to what modern psychology believes.

Sexual orientation; be it gay, straight or bisexual (somewhere along the Kinsey scale) has never been satisfactorily shown to be changable. I’m using the word orientation rather than preference to make a point. Homosexual orientation means you get your greatest physical, emotion and spiritual satisfaction from a person of the same sex as yourself. Heterosexual orientation means you get that satisfaction from a person of the opposite sex. I apologize if I didn’t make the point clearer earlier.

Dale The Bold, if you still think you can change your sexual orientation by force of will, there are lots of people who’d like to see a demonstration. Care to volunteer?

**Vanilla wrote:

And what of the people who have said they “changed”?
A deacon at my former church has done so.
I’ve ehard of others.
Are they ALL lying?
In denial?**

Probably not in denial, but I do question whether they were ever exclusively homosexual in the first place, but rather a bisexual who was able to submerge his same-sex attraction and focus upon his opposite-sex attraction.

A point that often gets lost in the arguement is that simply having an attraction toward a person of the same sex doesn’t make one homosexual. One can have attraction to one sex or the other (to varying degrees). A man can get his physical/emotional/spiritual satisfaction from women and yet still find other men appealing. But all too often the argument has been set up that you’re either gay or straight and there’s no “inbetween.” That’s incorrect, there’s a wide variation on sexual expression, preference and orientation. It’s simply not black and white, no matter how much the nay-sayers disagree.

Can you show us that these people you’re talking about were exclusively Kinsey 6 in their orientation before the test and then move to a Kinsey 1 or 0 afterwards?

I haven’t looked at this website to see what reasons these people have for choosing to be gay, but I have heard of women who choose to live as lesbians for political, emotional or psychological reasons. I say live as since these are ostensibly heterosexual women whose feminist beliefs or sexual trauma have led them to be unwilling to live as heterosexuals.

Personally, I think this is just as sad as those homosexuals whose religious beliefs lead them to try to change their orientations. We talk about sexual orientation as being about sex, but it’s also about love & emotional bonding. People’s intimate lives shouldn’t be about politics, fear, hurt, or shame.

Dale The Bold: Could you please tell me where you live so I can move there? Believe me, it’s hardly a Will & Grance episode in the real world. The reality for most of us is that we stay in the closet for fear of losing our jobs. I’ve had friends whose families prevented their lovers from having any contact with them while they died of AIDS. Other friends have lost their children, or been put out on the streets by their familes.

This is the least of what’s in store for you in the wonderful world of the homosexual lifestyle. But wait! There’s more! If you act now, you can also get: Being told by your family priest that God only condones suicide in the case of homosexuality. Or how about being told by your mother that she’ll never come to your house, because she’s afraid one of her friends might find out she has a gay child? The benefits are simply endless. Frankly, I don’t know why everyone doesn’t become gay. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Playdeaux *
**

That must be Will’s lover’s name, right? I meant Will & Grace.

[sub]Great Googly Moogly…[/sub]

Playdeaux, I just read My Son Divine by Frances Milstead, Divine’s mother.
She writes of the nasty things people have said right to her face about her son for being “different”.

My parents and sibling have face harassment because of my sexual orientation. Crank phone calls, comments, social outcast status… it hasn’t been fun for any of us.

At this point, it doesn’t seem worth it to prove a point.

Doesn’t it seem that homosexuality is being socially segregated? I mean, there is a huge effort to turn it into an “us and them” issue. We have to insist upon using the word orientation instead of preference because we feel a need to treat it like a physical difference. No wonder families of gays don’t accept their partners, “they” are perceived as somehow “different” and unlike the rest of us. It reminds me of the time I heard someone claim that black people have “fur instead of hair” just to create further separation. As far as I’m concerned sexuality is a choice. Regardless of what you read in someone else’s “findings,” I have total freedom over myself sexually and refuse to buy into the ideology that I cannot control my own inclinations or “orientation.” If someone chooses (even subconsciously) to be homosexual, then I admire them for it. I am well aware of how hard it is to be accepted, but those who fight that battle for their sexual freedom are held in the highest regard (by me, anyway). So don’t imply that I have some kind of prejudice or lack of understanding for the oppressed. I just wish more people had the gumption to declare that they choose to live their life and not cower like wimps and say “I can’t help but be this way” because that only causes division and adds to stereotypes. Instead, when a gay person stands up and declares “I choose to be who I am and I’m proud to express myself as I wish,” now that’s when I applaud. Is there not one person who understands that?

No, gay people do not say, “I choose to be who I am.” We say, “I accept who I am.” Gay people do not choose their sexual orientation any more than heterosexuals do.

Dale -

I am bisexual. I did not choose to be attracted to members of the same sex. I just am.

Where I have a choice is in how I choose to act upon my sexuality. I can choose to ignore that part of me that likes the way men look (and feel and smell and whatever) and be exclusively Sapphic in my behavior. I can choose to do exactly the opposite. I can choose to get myself into a polyamorous relationship that will allow me to have fun with either whenever it suits me (and my partners).

I cannot choose to not be attracted to, say, Ed Harris, any more than I can choose to not be attracted to, say, Gwen Stefani. Therefore, those who attract me are not within my control. How I choose to act on my feelings, even if I choose to totally deny them and never have sex, ever, does not change the fact that I am bisexual.

I can only assume that it is the same for those folks who are exclusively hetero- or homosexual.

There is no attempt at a division here, except (AFAICT) in your perceptions.

I am not trying to make myself different from everyone else by saying “this is how I am oriented,” except to point out, once again, that the human animal is fascinatingly complex. I am different than you who is different from Polycarp who is different from matt_mcl who is different from andygirl who is different from Biggirl…do you see where I’m going with this?

The only people trying to divide people out because they’re different are generally pretty hateful people. And, yeah, some of the queers out there are going to stand up and shout at the top of their lungs that they’re different. You know what? It’s a great reminder for those who are inclined to think that everyone is just like them.

So what you’re saying is that you’re going to maintain your opinion that sexual orientation is a choice despite evidence that this is not the case, and despite the vast, vast majority of queer people saying otherwise?

I think your idea of the causes of sexuality are very simplistic. You have control of your sexual orientation? Go ahead and have sex with a guy. I’d love to hear how well your engines got started.

It’s been said but is worth repeating: Orientation is not a choice. Behavior is.

Please turn gay, and report back to us your findings and experiences.

Point the first: As you say, even if it were a choice, who cares? This country is supposed to be about freedom of expression and, in point of fact, that freedom neither hurts nor helps anyone than the two consensual adults involved.

Point the second: I didn’t choose to be gay. I do, however, choose how to behave, and of that, I am proud. My pride about being gay has more to do with those with whom I share a history - I mean, really, who couldn’t be proud of counting Michaelangelo, Harvey Milk and George Michael among their tribe? :wink:

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