Just to be clear, I was responding to a post that suggested that, if the creators of that flag wanted it to be a combined Israeli/Gay pride flag, they would have designed it differently. I was pointing out that at least some of the people who make (or, at least, market) that flag do sell it as a combined Israeli/Gay pride flag, and as such, it’s not *irrational *(as distinct from incorrect) to assume that someone flying it is expressing support for both gay rights and a Jewish state.
You’ve been here long enough to know that:
- Mod Notes ARE consequences
- Discussion of moderator actions belong over PM/email or in ATMB
As the only person who responded to your post and mentioned anything about “experience,” I’d like to point out that I didn’t say anything about your take on the morality of the situation. I just pointed out that you clearly have no concept of the politics involved in the gay rights movement in general, or the nature of pride parades in particular, and as such, you should really not be telling other people how these things work.
No, it’s correct. The flag looks like the combination of an Israeli flag and a Gay Pride flag. Someone might reasonably think it was promoting Israel, not Jewishness. Rejecting that flag is not necessarily an act of anti-Semitism. It might be, but it might not. It might be an act of expressing disapproval of Israel.
It might be that the folks with the flag weren’t expressing support for Israel, but just bought the easiest flag they could find that combined gay symbolism with Jewish symbolism.
And that’s why I was hoping there was a misunderstanding and that if the two sides sat down to discuss it, they might come to some agreement going forward. But, as I previously said, I could be wrong.
Not trying to hijack, but is anyone else surprised this story has gone national? The Dyke march is a very minor event during Chicago Pride month and the exclusion of these flags is hardly national news.
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I tend to agree with this. There is a region of a flag that is pedantically known as the “canton”, which is that rectangle such as where the US flag is blue. It would have been quite simple to place the MD in the canton, which would say “I’m gay and I’m Jewish.” Placing the MD in the center replaces “Jewish” with “Zionist”, whether or not that is the flier’s intent.
Not really. It’s a story that would naturally get press in the LGBTQ and Jewish communities, along with the sort of press that likes to criticize either or both of those communities and their politics. Added up, it’s enough cumulative attention to get national coverage.
They may be unable to tolerate Zionism but they sure can vindicate it.
Maybe they should have made the star even smaller, and just put it on their shirts. Perhaps in a tasteful yellow.
Yes, right off you were wrong. Consider that. Your first post was completely wrong, completely afactual, something made up in your head with no regard for what were the facts.
You tried to portray the circumstance as Jewish marchers trying “shoehorning other causes into” something that should only be “about LGBT+ stuff.”
Instead this was a few march organizers deciding that their march was not LGBT issues but about trying attach themselves to a variety of other causes celebre. The Jewish marchers were just being “Jewish Dykes for Gay Rights”. A wide variety of issues unrelated to LGBT issues were welcomed there but gay Jewish women advertising that they are Jewish for Gay rights, y’know what Gay Pride is supposed to be actually about, were not.
It seems to me that the Chicago Dykes had decided to shoehorn their particular not LGBT related political issues, such as being anti-Zionist, into the Gay Pride event, like vegans shouting that turkey is murder at a Christmas parade and then kicking someone who had a “Santa Rocks!” sign out of it. But worse.
It certainly crossed my mind that if the organizers insist on being obstinate about negotiations with this group, that’s exactly what they should do next year.
No one is doing that, because you got a number of facts completely wrong, as already noted. I have opened up the possibility of disagreeing with the majority of the posters here, but not for any of the reasons you gave, which were incorrect.
You read a story about a spat between two minor groups on the left over a minor, unrelated point, a spat that leads to a schism between them, and your takeaway is that the left is becoming monolithic?
Christ. The main criticism of the left is that we’re way too factionalized and willing to bicker over tangents. This story could possibly illustrate that criticism. In no way does it illustrate a political view that’s well-coordinated and has reached consensus.
Okay, I get where I went wrong. What I should have said is that there’s a particular faction of the left, mainly organized around college campuses and activist socialist organizations that adopt a standardized list of positions on various issues and tolerate no dissent. But they aren’t very powerful, just loud. The Democratic Party certainly doesn’t pay attention to their crap.
Now the Republican Party, they do let the nutjobs run the place.
Oy gevalt. Now you’re trying to speak for the Jews too?
Gentiles can and do have valid points about what does or does not constitute anti-Semitism, but those that do are generally somewhat knowledgeable about the subject and related issues.
It’s interesting that your version of “morality” does not include anything about respect for minorities with a history of persecution. (FYI - “respect” includes not making pronouncements on our behalf)
I don’t know, a group that wasn’t anti-semetic might not be so begrudging about acknowledging Israel’s vastly superior record on gay rights compared to their neighbors.
It is of course also interesting that kicking people out equals simply “not supporting” them.
If BigT cares to google the parade she can easily find many picture of “Asian Gays!” “Boycott Israel” and hosts of others. There were many other posters and flags expressing identity that intersected with being gay. Only the flag that expressed Jewish identity intersectional with gayness was prohibited.
The ignorance in BigT’s post is breathtaking. In point of fact racism and anti-Semitism are not is or isn’t things. While this was a simple “is”, it was straight up that an expression of Jewish-Gay intersectionality allegedly might make a Palestinian gay (who would be ironically be *much *safer in Israel, and in New York City surrounded by many Jews, than being out in Palestine) feel “unsafe.” Jews be scary. This was anti-Semitic behavior. But for the broader subject, one does not need to a KKK member or a Nazi skinhead to have racist aspects to ones thought processes and implicit racist beliefs. There are gradations and the belief that if one “is or is not” a racist is one of the bigger obstacles to making greater progress against everyday racist impacts and structural racism in this country.
Again, most generously, the anti-Semitic behavior, the exclusive exclusion of an expression of Jewish-Gay intersectionality, might have been based on implicit beliefs and not explicit anti-Semitism, coupled with ignorance, stupidity, and an idiotic belief that “inclusion” is best accomplished by exclusion. It’s possible.
No, you will not see those. This incident occurred at the Dyke March, not the Pride Parade. The Dyke March is an extremely minor event, it’s smaller than my high school homecoming parade.
BigT will be surprised that he has become a she. 
And I googled and saw. Such as this “Proud to be Gaysian” one. Also in that stream “Queer and Asian in Chicago.” And yes there were “Zionism Sucks!” ones.
So uh yes you will see those. There.