Well of course I’ll agree that if you’re doing bad things, you’re a bad person, and a bad role model. But sometimes, just by being open, you’re a role model and you’re not even aware of it.
Case in point - when I was out in college, I had two friends, Jim and Steve. Both were gay, but neither was out to me for many years. When they finally were, and we talked about it, Jim said he never wanted to come out to me because I was everything he didn’t want to be as a gay man - effeminate, flighty, in-your-face, and so on. I was shocked, but I couldn’t deny he was right (I was quite a character when I first came out). Then Steve and I talked about it, and he said that he felt pressured not to tell anyone about being gay, but that he always really wanted to tell me because I was everything he wanted to be in a gay man - honest, proud, didn’t take any shit, didn’t care what people thought about me, and all that. I was his role model and didn’t even know it.
And I daresay everyone who comes to gay pride and is out is a role model, IMHO.
Gay Pride is simply a way of saying, “We are not ashamed.”
It is about coming out of the closets we hide in and letting others know we are here, and that we are not afraid. It means that we are not sorry for who we are and we will not apologize for our sexuality. And that we will not let the bigots of the world keep us down. It is a message a lot of people still need to hear.
I think “pride” is the perfect term. I am not gay, so I don’t know exactly what a gay person means by gay “pride” – as if there is only way way it is used. But from the definition I posted before:
Unfortunately, those who need to hear it most are the least likely to listen. They find the parades and celebration offensive, not liberating.
Not that this means the gay community should stop celebrating at all. As I said earlier, there’s no good reason why they shouldn’t, so I say go for it. However, if the goal is to “get the message out” to those who haven’t heard it yet, this is a somewhat counterproductive method, to my mind.
If the intent is simply to celebrate the accomplishments of the community and the individuals in it, then those goals are accomplished admirably.
I think I agree with Dewey and others that “Gay Pride” sounds a little off to me, and doesn’t adequately describe what the event seems to be about. There are probably better ways to express the same thing, but like the man said, that’s pretty much a semantic difference.
Not every white male supports the patriarchy, and some disdain and refuse the things that they would based purely on their gender and ethnicity.
Thus, it isn’t “hate the sin, love the sinner,” but look to see who is really supporting it and then deal with them and know that there are those who may be able to belong to that and choose not to.
So it’s agreed, Gay Pride stays. Now can Jesse Jackson have his Rainbow back?
Personally the word “pride” has always grated on me but it seems to mean a slightly different thing to each person. I try to react to the displayed attitude, not my definitions.
I’m with y’all. It’s in response to the notion that I should hide who I am, or that there’s something wrong with it, or that I need to change/repress/convert in some way that aspect of myself.
There is also the safety in numbers thing … someone might attack one gay man marching alone, but 20? Not without an assault rifle…
I think your earlier posts were accurate but are a contradiction with the black pride analogy. The need for any “Pride” day revolves around the negative aspect that has been attached to it. You can take any demographic group and denigrate it to a point where it carries a stigma. You can’t have an “I’m not ashamed to be gay” parade because that suggests there is a reason to be ashamed.
As a side note, I’ve found the topic of homosexuality interesting and had a fairly long discussion about it with my psychologist Cousin. I could not get past the argument of normalcy. Her professional view was that it was normal, period! My take was that is was biologically abnormal but psychologically neutral. It is neither a good thing nor a bad thing. If I’m right, then eventually a medical scenario will arise that will allow for genetic alteration of sexuality. That will make a good debate topic. Forget about discussing circumcision, should we snip our children’s sexuality?
Is anyone here actually surprised that some of us in the gay community might feel threatened by even benign questioning of the need for a gay pride day? We’ve worked so hard to get to this point, and our position in society is by no means fortified. The suggestion, even if it presents in the form of an innocent question, that we shouldn’t be proud of who we are or shouldn’t be allowed an outlet for this pride, definitely gets the hair on the back of my neck standing tall. I understand the reactions of people like MockingBird. Don’t be so hard on him for being just a little bit defensive…
I don’t think anyone has suggested that gays shouldn’t be allowed an outlet for showing pride of their community, or not be proud of what they have accomplished. I certainly didn’t mean to convey that. I guess I’m merely trying to clarify if we are actually celebrating the accomplishments, or just the fact that we are gay. And if in fact, it is the accomplishments, if there might not be a more effective way.
musicguy: The topic of the thread itself can be construed the threats I referred to. I know they weren’t meant that way, but I’m simply pointing out why some of us may be slightly defensive when issues such as this one are brought up.
Also, there may be a more effective way than Gay Pride day to celebrate our accomplishments. However, I don’t believe the Gay Pride movement originated primarily for this purpose. I believe that in the beginning it was a transgressive thing. Society tried to keep us down and Gay Pride, along with the nudity and other ‘outrageous’ behaviour, was a way for us to collectively give society the finger. And it was a very effective means of doing so. In light of all of our gains it may have taken on a different meaning, and hence may not be as effective at conveying this new meaning. That’s why we have to view the movement in context. Just my two cents…
I can understand the initial defensivness, based on the thread title. But as I have said, I posted to the question to learn more about how others feel about the subject and to explore it, not because I want to suppress anything.
I couldn’t agree more. All I’m suggesting is that if, in fact, the current way of doing things may not be as affective at conveying this new meaning, then maybe the current way should be questioned. Not necessarily changed radically, just questioned.
There is so much that still needs to be accomplished. We are far from being equal in the grand scheme of things and that needs to change. It is in everyones best interest that the path we are taking towards that goal is the most effective one. I’m not convinced that “Gay Pride” is necessarily the most effective path. That doesn’t mean I’m trying to degrade its meaning or historical context in any way.
By the way, I am really happy that this thread had remained civil and productive. With the exception of the first response, it would seem to be a very healthy discussion. Thanks to everyone for keeping it that way!
I don’t insist that every single post in GD be deadly serious, but if you’re just going to post lame one-liners without adding anything of substance to the debate, at least try not to be offensive about it.
And don’t post direct personal insults or call people names in Great Debates, either.
People seem to take my post as offensive…not exactly sure why. Is it the misspelling of “special”, implying that gays speak with a lithp? (That was just a silly insert, if so). Or is it the statement itself? If so, I don’t know that it should offend, for the statement reflects a fact. Unless, of course, a fact is offensive. (Little MT reference there)
Anyhoo, the fact of the matter is that any “pride” day IS essensially a “let’s group together and show that we’re special” day, demanding extra attention from the faceless masses. The argument that “every other day is a [majority]-pride day” is invalid, usually the majority neither demands special attention or gets it; they just sort of exist.
The heterosexual majority does not “just sort of exist,” it flaunts its orientation every day. Every time the papers mention the President’s wife, or two movie stars getting married, it ceebrates its orientation. The daytime talk shows constantly talk about weddings and relatioship counselling, but gay relationships are depicted only as fodder for freak shows on Jerry Springer.
Gay people have always been made to feel that we are inferior, sinful, disgusting for wanting only to love and be loved. Consider Richard Cahmberlain, the star of Shogun and The Thorn Birds who at 69 years of age has only just revealed his marriage of 28 years. Why? Because his partner is a man. Would he have kept his status a secret if head been hetero? Would he have said,
if he were hetero?
The reason Gay Pride exists is to say to ourselves as much as to the world that we are normal and our love is good and right.
I also hate the “pride” thing. I hate when parents say they’re proud of their children’s accomplishments. It’s not possible! YOu can’t be proud of someone elses actions. It’s misuse of the word.
Gay “celebration” month, or gay “community” month would be much more accurate terms. Gay “unity” is close, but it still has an “us vs. them” tone to it, which I don’t think is helpful.
That said, I think the parades and activities highlighting the gay community and issues are a necessary part of bringing people to understand rather than fear gay folks.
I tend not to discuss my sexuality to any great degree around here. But I am a man who married his childhood sweetheart and has a happy marriage of 28 years and counting, and whose life was transformed by the love of a young man 25 years younger than myself who has been my closest friend for twelve of those years now, and who, with his wife and children, guested me while I was away working.
Thanks to being the typical geek/nerd type and hence socially ostracized while growing up, plus a sex=evil conceptualization inculcated by parents and other adults, I ended up with a bad dose of self-loathing that I’d match even-up against most of the gay people that have been through it.
I’m pleased with who I am – “proud” in the sense of Black Pride, Gay Pride, etc. – self-affirming and enjoying the life I live. And it was the Nineties, with the love of that young man affirming me as a person and the support of my ex-boss for whom I worked these past three weeks rebuilding my professional worth and identity, which my past employment by insecure people who found the necessary crutch to their own egos by “putting me in my place” had all but destroyed, that led me to where I am.
Any man or woman, boy or girl, who feels it important to tell the world that he or she is a worthwhile human being, the equal of anyone else, who is pleased and happy to be who he or she is, has my full support. I’ve been there; I know how it feels. And they can call the event in which they celebrate that sense of self-worth by any name they choose.
