Oh, I used rank in the context of “this person is an elder/supervisor/boss/person deserving of a more formal level of respect” vs. “this person is a peer, and thus can be spoken to in a more casual manner” vs. “this person is a peer, but circumstances require that I speak to them in a formality somewhere in between a peer and a person of higher ranking”. I will adjust my vocabulary and topics of conversation greatly depending upon whom I am speaking with, and likewise I may be far more formal in my greetings with work peers than with social peers. I shake hands with most of my peers, but some have accepted that I like to hug social peers if it is okay with them. Though I like my boss and think she is awesome, I refrain from hugging her because we are at work, and it’s not a standard form of greeting at work.
May I suggest that the level of formality of manners should be taylored to the level of formality of dress and the occasion in question. Going to McD’s with the gang after school: keep the ball cap on, just don’t slam the door in the face of the person behind you, whoever calls shotgun gets the seat and their own damn door… Squiring a young lady to a nicer dinner, or perhaps the prom, he perhaps sporting a nice tie and jacket, she a lovely dress, then yes, get the doors (car & buildings) hold her chair, and compliment her on her hair / earrings / shoes.
Being a gentleman is not just around ladies, either: you look people in the eye, you shake hands firmly and briefly, address other men as sir, women younger than your mom as miss, older as ma’m. Do what you say you will do. Don’t speak ill of other people. Listen attentively…
Also, table manners. Table manners in a more formal setting are another mark of a gentleman. Does the young lad know how to butter his bread (small pieces, on the bread plate -the one on his left), which fork to use, how to eat soup? Can he do all this in a relaxed and confident manner? Is he comfortable conversing with the waiter regarding the specials of the day and the wine selection? At home, can he carve the roast or the turkey, open a bottle of wine? Sounds like he’s just the right age to be learning these things.
I really wish we could drop this archaic bullshit.
From my immediate experience, I can think of two jobs you would not have gotten with such an attitude to table manners.
Enjoy the nachos and burgers, dude.
Keep in mind that it’s likely the people I keep company with now grew up the same way. Thus, my son’s actions around women are the norm/expected. I have never had anyone tell me, ‘Your son is TOO polite. How sexist!’ and I live in granola-ville.
If he knows that it’s something I grew up with (and like it) and refuses to do it, yeah. I mean, are you that hard-headed?
That’s your opinion, I guess.
Did you seriously just call me a cunt?
It may be “archaic bullshit” to you, but to some of us, it’s the way we expect things to work. If I am escorting a ladyfriend to a nice dinner for which I have made reservations at a fancy restaurant, and she has gone to the trouble of selecting a pretty outfit, doing her makeup, fixing her hair, and so on, I am definitely not going to show up in a “Def Leppard” t-shirt, Oakland Raiders ball cap, and jeans that cannot stay up.
Now, I am not saying that you, jz78817, would appear like that. I would like to think that you are better than that. I would like to think that if you were escorting a young lady to a fancy restaurant, you would at least consider where you were going, consider your date, and consider that a few hours of discomforting clothes and manners (to you) is a fair tradeoff for the pleasure of the young lady’s company at dinner.
That’s what a gentleman does: consider others, despite any personal inconvenience or discomfort. If you are not prepared to do that, then you are no gentleman.
I’m not talking about dress. I’m talking about the “this is the salad fork, and the bread plate goes on the left, and you switch the fork from your left to your right hand before bringing food to your mouth.” pointless, insignificant BS that was dreamed up as “manners” so that some could show how much better they were than “those people.”
Your opinion. Not mine. Perhaps we should do away with place settings and cutlery altogether, and just supply bowls for everything; or perhaps, troughs. Beer could go on the right or the left, depending on the handedness of the diner.
I think we’ve identified the kind of meal you’d like. It is not the kind I’d like. We can agree to disagree on this one.
Can you explain to me how using the first fork rather than the second one for a given service or putting the bread plate on the left rather than the right helps others?
You seem to very much like false dichotomies. 78817 says that “Does the young lad know how to butter his bread (small pieces, on the bread plate -the one on his left), which fork to use, how to eat soup? Can he do all this in a relaxed and confident manner? Is he comfortable conversing with the waiter regarding the specials of the day and the wine selection? At home, can he carve the roast or the turkey, open a bottle of wine?” is archaic bullshit.
You respond by bringing up clothes and making it appear that if someone disagrees with the prickly rules trupa laid out, that person would dress shoddily. There is rather obviously a middle ground between worrying if the bread plate is on the left or right and wearing jeans that can’t stay up.
78817 then makes it clear he was talking about the prickly table rules and not dress. You then bring up doing away with place settings and cutlery and eating out of bowls. When you argue like this, you show that you cannot or will not think or express yourself in ways other than black and white. It isn’t to your credit.
It doesn’t. But as I hope I made clear above, a gentleman tries to put others at ease. If others are stymied by the location of a bread plate, the a gentleman ought to lead the way. He puts his bread or roll on the plate to the left, and works with it from there.
I’m unsure of your point here, possibly because of the multi-quoting. But let’s continue:
Just to be clear, I think that different rules may apply depending on where one is. I am unsure if the poster whom you are referring to recognizes the same thing. I am operating under the impression that 78817 feels that anything goes anywhere. It is with this attitude that I disagree–and if I am wrong, then so be it.
Yes, and if he does not like “prickly table rules,” with the accompanying place settings and consequent etiquette, then perhaps he would prefer a trough. The etiquette I’m describing is, after all, “archaic bullshit” at play. Why don’t we all just plop our elbows on the table, and tell the host to dish it up? That’s not what he said, to be fair, but it was what he inferred (to me, anyway).
This thread is about gentlemanly conduct. Those who prefer to define “gentlemanly conduct” in a different way than I do are, of course, free to do so.
But I bet I get more dates. 
So are you saying you live in near constant fear of having your ass kicked by the very eldery? 
Well I would consider a woman who demands to have a car door opened for her a sexist douche. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.
I think it’s just a case of consideration for others according to circumstances, not chivalry. And times change.
I have always held the door open for anyone coming or behind me, and still do. When cars had keys to open the door I used to let female passengers in first and walk around the car to let myself in. It was a good test too, any considerate woman would lean over and unlock the driver’s door. Now with central locking I just unlock the car as we approach.
**This is silly. **Tables with multiple sets of forks/knives/etc. are set up so that you work your way from the outside to the inside, and side plates of food go to your left, while drinks go to your right. We do this so that we’re not accidentally sharing a plate and nobody steals your water glass. It’s all done to avoid confusion at tables where there is going to be a multi-course meal served; though it may be archaic and bullshit for you, it works to keep confusion and chaos to a minimum when people are being served more than one dish for their meal. When you’re eating multiple courses, it’s good to know which fork to use and which knife is for the butter, as those utensils go away as the next course is brought out.
These skills are not that difficult to learn, not terribly convoluted (except for that silly American fork-switching thing-- just learn to eat with the fork in your left hand if you need the knife), and help you eat politely at the table when you are surrounded by guests, your boss, or anyone else that you don’t want to think of you as a boor. It also facilitates conversation at the table, which is a significant benefit to dining with others-- you’re not just sharing food or enjoyment of a meal, but conversation with (hopefully) interesting people. You probably already know most of the rules, and if you don’t, you may be one of those folks that others don’t tend to want to watch while eating a “fork and knife” meal.
That said, I don’t always use the most formal manners all the time when eating. If I’m at a “burgers and wings” place, I’ll avoid putting my elbows on the table and cover my lap with a napkin, but I’m not going to get super dainty with the cutlery unless the food I’m eating requires me to use a knife and a fork lest I look like a caveman if I use my hands. (Would you eat a salad with your hands? How about just grabbing a steak with your hands and ripping off chunks with your teeth?) I also don’t try to pick apart my food with my fingers before eating, or dissect my sandwich because there might be something I don’t like embedded within-- I was perfectly capable of ordering it sans the offending item if I really cared that much. If I must remove something from an open sandwich, I can do so with my fork without making a fuss or mess in the process.
Manners are situational, and sometimes stepping up the formality is necessary. It’s not meant to make people look like fools, but to avoid discomfort for all of those involved. Do you tell complete strangers about your bowel movements, or your new boss about your sex life upon meeting them? These guidelines are set up mostly so that you don’t accidentally make a social gaffe and create a lingering discomfort between you and the other person, which is important if you have regular contact with them.
It is patently obvious that certain particulars of high table manners are simply archaic. Which way you spoon your soup for example (away from you), may have originated to protect your fine dress from becoming soiled, but doing it the other way is hardly vulgar or crude. If you can manage that way, nobody should care. Elbows on the table was originally introduced to keep everyone comfortable at smaller, tighter tables than we use now. A modern compromise would be to rest your forearms on the table, keeping in mind if things are close quarters to keep them off. The same goes for chair posture. Insistence on sitting in the most uncomfortable manner possible (straight upright, back not resting on the back of the chair, nor pulling the chair up enough to sit comfortably) simply to show form is idiotic. It is another holdover from old days of small tables. A modern gentleman will find a way to arrange his chair to be comfortable and at ease while not disturbing others.
Manners are about making everyone as comfortable as possible, not silly shows of breeding.
A well mannered gentleman should appear comfortable and confident in whatever situation he is placed into (barring extraordinary occurrences of course). Thus basic table manners that ensure that he is neither bothering the other diners, nor making them feel inferior should be the model.
More tips for a modern gentlemen:
Use a watch rather than your phone in a polite setting. it takes less time to glance at your wrist, then to dig out your phone. Watches are also one of the few types of universally acceptable jewelry left to men.
In a nice restaurant, on a date, or nice business lunch, do not answer your phone or text at the table, excuse yourself and go into the lobby, waiting area, gentleman’s room or outside if you must take a call. You are supposed to be focusing on your food and your dining companions. If you are not the person of highest rank in a business setting, follow the leader’s example, or fall back on this rule. The person of highest rank will tell you not to bother to get up if they do not mind or wish you to not inconvenience yourself.
Do not use your phone in the theatre unless it is an emergency.
Always work with the provided silverware at a restaurant. Work from the outside in if there is multiple settings. If not, it is fine to use your knife and fork over again. If you are unsure, then place the silver on your plate and see if the staff clears it away and brings you more. In most places they will do this automatically, leaving only silver you place back on the table, napkin, (whatever).
Learn to eat with chopsticks.
Learn to eat noodles and soup in the Asian manner, cupping the small bowl in one hand and drinking from it directly.
Sushi is no longer an exotic rarity, but has it’s own set of manners. A modern gentleman should know these even if he does not care for sushi.
Use enough soy sauce to just cover the bottom of the little bowl.
Do not mix your wasabi into the soy sauce.
Dip the fish, not the rice into the soy sauce.
Pieces of sushi should be eaten in one bite if possible.
It is fine to eat sushi with one’s fingers, but not sashimi (fish only, NO rice).
If you want to be classy about Saki, you never pour your own (dining with Japanese, this can get weird and complicated). If you have doubts about others understanding this rule and are ordering the saki, YOU pour for everybody on the first round.
A gentleman should know the difference between the common liquors, and basic types of wine and beer. He should be able to make a suggestion to a friend who is uncertain based upon this information. He is not expected to be a bartender, or a sommalier, but rather should be able to understand the basics here.
Do not stare at piercings, stretched ear plugs, or tattoos. Do not comment on them unless invited to do so or in a complimentary manner. If you find you cannot say anything complimentary or neutral about such practices, or the example in front of you, say nothing and pretend the modification does not exist. If pressed, (which is rude fishing on the part of the other person) a response along the lines of " ______ is not really to my taste, so I couldn’t really offer an opinion." Should get the message across without being overly rude.
This is a good one that I didn’t think of. This would go the same way with someone who is dressed or appear differently, especially people with disfigurements or who are garbed in a religious/ethnic manner of dress. If you’re curious, ask politely in a complimentary manner. Folks want to know that you’re interested to learn more, not that you think they’re weird.
Oh, by the way, I’m married to Acid Lamp. Even though we agree on a lot, we don’t always have the same views on stuff, as we had different “training” as kids. I had a Northern European skill set growing up, and he had more of a Midwest/Northeast American skill set. I spent a LOT of time during my childhood dining with folks who grew up in the 1940s and 1950s in Europe, at somewhat formal dinner parties, and the occasional formal dinner out, so I got a lot of practice with more formal dinner manners. I still don’t use the soup spoon rule he’s talking about, and we always had enough room at the table so that I didn’t have to peer on the edge of my seat as if the backrest had monsters ready to devour my spine, so there are some things in common that we don’t follow.
There is a huge difference between eating at a trough and following all the ridiculous flatware rules of “fine dining.” A gentleman would know that.
So I bet you get fewer dates than most of the people responding to this thread.
Politeness should be generally gender blind. It’s subtlely patronizing to do certain things for people just because they are women. With the exception of formal events (it can be difficult to manage a big frilly dress), and dating in general - whoever is treating on the particular date will do well to treat their paramour extra special.
Hat etiquette is a rotting zombie that should have been put out of it’s misery decades ago. Any teacher that thinks they should have a special magical hat free classroom is a douche. Hats should be taken off if they are a physical or visual obstruction.
Really, it’s common sense. The goal here is not to memorize an obscure checklist like you are playing Yahtzee. Just be nice and considerate to everyone.
Emphasize empathy (how does that person feel, how would you feel), and the golden rule (how would you want to be treated, what would make that person happier). Make a point of expressing how good you feel after you do something nice, or someone does something nice for you.
I agree that complicated table settings may be archaic with obscure rules as to the proper use of each piece. I myself wouldn’t be able to distinguish between a shrimp fork and a salad fork even if they jumped up, screamed their purpose, then deeply embedded themselves in my cornea. Some people feel dining is an art, and the ornate, elaborate table settings is part of that experience. However, making someone feel anxious because they cut a salad with a knife is the antithesis of ‘manners’ and ‘etiquette’.
What I wish to impart to my boys is that holding a spoon like a shovel, while stuffing food into a great, gaping maw, or taking bites so large that their cheeks are distended, or that chewing with an open mouth while emitting the most obscene chewing noises is, at best thinly tolerated by very few, and at worst, found appalling by the massess.
I want them to realize that how they do ‘pizza with the boys’ is not the same as ‘dinner with her her parents’. Its amazing how few people, adults included, seem unaware of simple rules such as placing the napkin in the lap, taking one reasonable bite at a time, chewing with mouth closed, offering items to others before serving oneself, turning off the cell phone, or at the very least, excusing oneself from the table and the room before calling, answering, or texting in the event of an EMERGENCY (and no, ‘wazzup bro?’, is not an emergency).
There’s often a logical reason behind the rules for use of table settings. If everyone knows that his/her bread plate is the one to the left, it removes the problem of one person having two plates and somebody else having none.
The silverware is easy – you use the fork furthest to the outside for the first dish. When that’s done, the server removes that plate and fork. When the next plate is served, you again use the utensil on the outside. This keeps you from being left with a little salad fork to eat your roast beef with.
The switching hands and eating one morsel of bread at a time is intended to demonstrate that you are taking your time and enjoying your meal in a leisurely manner, not just being as efficient as possible in an effort to stuff your craw as fast as you can. However, there is a difference on the two sides of the Atlantic on that one, which I believe came to be simply because one group wanted to show that they were different from the other.
And of course we’re all aware that customs appropriate in northern Europe are not necessarily appropriate in all parts of the world. In some countries your fellow diners would be horrified if you used your left hand since that hand is reserved for sanitary purposes. Slurping noodles is fine in some cultures (shows appreciation) and not in others (shows greed and sloppiness).
Has anyone, ever, been stymied by the location of a bread plate? I put it to you that the only reason anyone would worry about that would be for fear of upsetting sticklers for ceremony. Therefore, you could best put others at ease by being at ease yourself.