Gentlemen in Training - Current Theories

In My Humble Opinion
61

I’d be wary of insisting that your sons follow every prescription of, say, medieval chivalry or Victorian polite society manners. There’s a subset of commonsense politeness that goes over well in most places, but there’s a subset of things in some older “manners” practices that might not work well today, including matters of honor regarding gentlemanly duels (was one ever socially obliged to accept a challenge to mortal combat?).

If you have daughters, would you expect them to curtsey to their teachers? That would be an interesting thing for them to learn for the history and cultural understanding as well as that one formal ball they might attend, but otherwise it has become something that is not really done anymore and it isn’t impolite not to.

62

I, for one, welcome our new 16 year old douche overlords.

63

First, nice user-name/thread subject combination.

Second, as per earlier note, I have been at dinners where somebody grabbed at the bread plate to his right and the usual off-by-one error occurred. Would have been smoother if he’d followed the customary practice. Of course, this is not a big deal among friends. Still, if one were trying to make an impression upon a prospective employer or in-law, it would be nice to appear as sophisticated and knowledgable as possible, taking these minor issues in stride, instead of having to be the “Oh, golly gee, silly old me, used the wrong plate, yuk, yuk, yuk” peasant.

64

Thanks! Knew it would come in handy sometime.

[QUOTE=MLS]
Second, as per earlier note, I have been at dinners where somebody grabbed at the bread plate to his right and the usual off-by-one error occurred. Would have been smoother if he’d followed the customary practice. Of course, this is not a big deal among friends. Still, if one were trying to make an impression upon a prospective employer or in-law, it would be nice to appear as sophisticated and knowledgable as possible, taking these minor issues in stride, instead of having to be the “Oh, golly gee, silly old me, used the wrong plate, yuk, yuk, yuk” peasant.
[/QUOTE]

I suppose I view it like this: it’s great to have and use that knowledge, but it’s bad to expect it from someone else. Politeness is very wrapped up in current custom, and fulfilling people’s expectations is a big part of it. If you’re at a dinner where nobody knows or cares which side the bread plate it on, so long as everyone has one, I would say it’s rude to insist on being a Left-Breadian (as it shall henceforth be known). On the other hand, if you’re at a dinner where everyone is a Left-Breadian, it would be rude to insist that it doesn’t matter and grab your right-hand bread.

However, that level of inter-connectedness is the exception, not the rule, in table manners. It affects you not one whit if I eat my salad with the wrong fork, or put my elbows on the table (provided I don’t knock anything over). Same with a lot of old-school etiquette; wearing my hat indoors (barring the need-to-see-my-face example) or wearing white after labour day are tied to very specific customs. Frankly, they’re out of fashion, at least among my peers (that would be late twenties, urban professional), and insisting on them pretty much marks you as an old fuddy-duddy (of course, so does using the phrase fuddy-duddy, so…)

To my mind, given the vast number of cultures that are around us these days, I think it’s far more important to be gracious than gentlemanly. A gracious person strives to not stand out - that means going along with the customs at hand, not insisting on your own. A gracious person gives others the benefit of the doubt if they don’t follow a custom, rather than calling them a douche. A gracious person understands that customs differ, and is flexible to whatever they may be.

65

Agree completely. Miss Manners herself says it is truly rude to call attention to another person’s possible errors.

Regarding going along with customs at hand, there’s absolutely the “When in Rome…” rule.

66

Not at the prom! Save that for the Number Six dance.

67

Just so you understand, it does come up for most of us everytime we go to a wedding. The last 10 weddings I have gone to have been at circular tables with 8-10 people at the tables. While I am consistently seating with my husband, there are typically people at the table I do not know or know well.

As such, I have not had bread at any of the weddings. Why you ask? Because someone will use the right-hand plate and someone else will use the left. This circles around the table and I will allow myself to be the one without a plate. I am not going to bring it up as I do not want ‘complainer’ as a first impression. Plus, I would rather not get something than someone else do without.

It is on the list of things I taught the kids (mine are 6 and 7) before the first time we went to a wedding (that and where the cutlery and glasses are and to put the napkin in their laps).

So, if my little ones can handle it (and understand that it is so everyone gets a plate), why can’t you?

They also eat sitting up straight (since it prevent spillage and stains when you are smaller than the table is designed for), don’t put their elbows on the table (promotes shovelling), grip their utensils correctly (prevents shovelling), chew with their mouths closed (cause no one wants to see that).

68

Sure, that makes sense. Any bit of politeness that’s rooted in practicality makes a lot of sense - as long as you don’t insist on it in other situations. For instance, all the weddings I’ve been to have involved buffets, and I’d think it was seriously weird to insist on proper bread plate placement. In a more formal setting, it makes a lot of sense. I think a lot of the problem is that settings that were once ubiquitous are now much rarer - or, rather, they were ubiquitous among a certain class, and now that people interact with other classes more, they’re less common for everyone. So you have etiquette that used to be universal for everyone you knew, and now it isn’t - to my mind, the proper reaction is to be a lot more flexible about what counts as ‘proper’, and just go with what makes sense.

I also recommend just putting a bread plate on each side. Double-fisting!

69

I totally agree with this one. Leave your hate on the battlefield! :cool:

70

Hat’s indoors drive me nuts as well. That and f’n sunglasses.

I worked in a restaurant where the policy was to ask any patron with a hat (baseball cap) on to remove it.

As far as it comes to women. I’ll hold doors open or when getting on public transit let women on first. I give up my seat to the elderly of any sex, and pregnant women.

That’s about it.

71

Not sure if it’s true, but my high school German teacher informed us that he learned while studying in Germany that it is very rude to keep your hands out of sight while eating. Apparently for children, it can be compared to American Old West gunslingers with their pistol in one hand under the table.

As others have said, it becomes a problem when you’re in formal dining situations like weddings, where using the wrong plate means somebody doesn’t get a bread plate if nobody speaks up. Additionally, I’ve had to remind my wonderful husband of the “bread plate on the left” rule in the past.

“Here comes an S!” use of apostrophes tend to annoy me, but not as much as hats at the dining table. :wink:

72

Wow. You’re awesome. Here’s your reward.

73

Not intentionally. Sorry if I pained you.

And yes, the raping in the vintage car would indeed be at the number six dance. No, I’m not trying to rape you, Citizen – in fact, I’d no idea you were a woman.

74

There are no gender-based courtesies that are appropriate to perpetuate. The notions if chivalry and Victorian gentlemannishness are and should be repugnant to all of us.

75

Fallacy of the excluded middle, anyone? Thanks to some well-heeled in-laws, I eat at formal dinners quite frequently and somehow I manage to muddle through with basic table manners, even if nobody ever taught me the proper way to eat my dinner rolls. I’ve yet to see anyone blanch in horror upon seeing me at the table.

There’s another phrase for the kind of chivalry that defers to women: benevolent sexism. Research indicates that benevolent sexism and straight-up misogyny are basically cut from the same cloth, and the presence of one in a given individual is often indicative of the other (The Psychology of Gender, 2nd Edition, 2005.) I’m not a fan.

76

Seriously? If a woman is behind you in the elevator and you are both exiting on the same floor, you’ll step aside to let her leave first? That’s ridiculous.

OTOH, if people behind me are getting off a crowded elevator and I’m not, I may step out to give make it easier for them, regardless of sex. Which of course makes the “women get out first” thing impossible.

77

Oh my goodness, that cookie looks so real it’s downright cruel.

78

Swear to Og, that cookie looks like a diseased and very unsafe condom. I dunno why that connection came into my head.

79

I just assumed it was so he could look at all the butts and was now teaching his son how to look at all the butts.

80

It depends on how it is done, really. I once had a roommate that went out with a guy who tried his best to be polite but really failed in his attempt. He saw an old lady climbing the stairs with a suitcase and decided he should be polite and help her with it but instead of saying, “Excuse me ma’am, would you like some help carrying your bag?” he just grabbed it and ran up the stairs with it. She thought she was being mugged. Then in a gentlemanly effort to save my roommate the $2 in subway fare he swiped his card and then squished into the turnstile with her when she started to go through. Yep, scaring the shit out of little old ladies and stealing from the MTA is what he considered to be polite. She never went out with him again.