"ghey" = "gay"?

[Loopydude]

I have a nephew in his early teens. A couple of times now, we’ve chatted with IRC, which is kind of fun. After one profound discussion about the half-pipe he was building with my brother-in-law/his dad, we got off into a tangent about a neighbor kid who he didn’t want to use the half-pipe. The offending kid has a skeevey haircut and uses hair gel. He’s really “ghey”.

Now, now, I gently scolded, let’s not get all homophobic.

No, No, I was reassured, ghey isn’t “gay”, it’s just…y’know, ghey.

:dubious:

I don’t want to be the lamer uncle, now, so I need to know: Am I being whooshed by covert teen homophobia, or has this “ghey” thing evolved into something roughly equivalent to “dorky”?

[Revtim]

I think it’s an attempt to turn the old “gay=bad” perjorative into something not anti-homosexual.

[Ponder_Stibbons]

Well, I’m fourty so obviously I have no idea what today’s teens are doing. But I think saying “ghey” has nothing to do with “gay” is like saying “nigga” has nothing to do with “nigger”. If you change the spelling of an insult without changing the usage, it’s the same ol’ perjorative just dressed up new.

[iampunha]

My experience, albeit limited, has told me that ghey is an attempt to get past language filters (such as those in a moderated chat channel) but carries much of the perjorative meaning of gay.

That beside the point, said nephew failed to convince me of his intended meaning, but then I’m biased anyway:)

[SolGrundy]

No, no, there’s nothing homophobic about using “ghey” to mean “bad” when referring to a skeezy guy who uses hair gel. Anyone who says otherwise would have to be some kind of phaggoty koksuqqing phudjpakker.

But seriously, using a word in a derogatory sense and then claiming that there’s nothing offensive about it? That’s just retarded!

[Otto]

Not to mention niggardly.

[matt_mcl]

This is so Djouïsche.

[Northern_Piper]

@Otto

Not to mention niggardly.

I don’t think that’s really a good example, Otto. “Niggardly” meaning parsimonious, cheap, tightwad, etc., is a very old English word, probably older than the n-word.

I can’t find an on-line etymology, but my Concise Oxford identifies “niggardly” as derived from Middle English, as a variant on the obsolete word nigon, which in turn probably entered the English language from one of the Scandanavian languages.

The n-word is derived from the Spanish word for “black” and likely came into the English language considerably later.

That’s not the same as intentionally taking a term in a derogatory sense, changing the spelling but not the pronunciation, and then trying to say that it’s something completely different.

[Wile_E]

I always thought it was what you got when you separated out the solid gay curds leaving the liquid ghey.

[Skywatcher]

@Northern Piper

I don’t think that’s really a good example, Otto. “Niggardly” meaning parsimonious, cheap, tightwad, etc., is a very old English word, probably older than the n-word.

Whoosh?

[Loopydude]

So, the general oppinion seems to be that while “ghey” may not mean precisely “gay”, it’s still an essentially homophobic pejorative.

Fair enough. Now I have to figure out how to call bullshit the next time I see it without being too strident. Nothing closes a young mind like a lecture.

[Northern_Piper]

@Lute Skywatcher

Whoosh?

I couldn’t tell if Otto was joking or not. There was a fairly high-ranking municipal employee, I think in Washington D.C., who got into a heap of trouble a few years ago for using “niggardly” in a meeting with his subordinates - used it correctly, according to its proper meaning, but some people took offence. There were calls for him to be fired. Don’t remember how it turned out. Anyone else know?

[sleeping]

@Northern Piper

I couldn’t tell if Otto was joking or not. There was a fairly high-ranking municipal employee, I think in Washington D.C., who got into a heap of trouble a few years ago for using “niggardly” in a meeting with his subordinates - used it correctly, according to its proper meaning, but some people took offence. There were calls for him to be fired. Don’t remember how it turned out. Anyone else know?

Yep. He had to resign:

Take such squeamishness a little further and you have the shameful attack on David Howard, the white director of a Washington D.C. municipal agency who told his staff that, in light of budget cutbacks, he would have to be “niggardly” with funds. An uproar followed that resulted in Howard’s resignation, which was accepted by Mayor Anthony Williams on the grounds that Howard had shown poor judgment.

Even some of the commentators who admitted that they knew that “niggardly” has no relation to “nigger” (the origins of the first word predate those of “nigger” by about 300 years) still condemned Howard. They were answered by the columnist Tony Snow, who wrote, “David Howard got fired because some people in public employ were morons who a) didn’t know the meaning of the word ‘niggardly’ b) didn’t know how to use a dictionary to discover the word’s meaning and c) actually demanded that he apologize for their ignorance.”

There was a similar protest about a University of Wisconsin at Madison professor who used “niggardly” during a Chaucer class – this time the complaint came from a student to whom the professor had explained the word’s origins. And a professor at Jefferson Community College in Louisville was dismissed because of the lone protest of one black student (out of nine in class of 22) upset by the professor’s inclusion of “nigger” in a class discussion on taboo words.

This was also the subject of Straight Dope column:

Likely, your conversation on the word occurred about the same time as much of the country’s, when poor David Howard made the national news for use of this term. Howard, head of the Office of Public Advocate for D.C. Mayor Anthony Williams, who described his own administration of a particular fund as “niggardly” in the presence of two of his staff members. He has since been quoted as saying he “immediately apologized” for making what might be misinterpreted as a “racist remark,” but the damage had been done. Rumors circulated that he had in fact used a racial epithet (one attribution claimed he said, “I’m tired of all these niggers calling me with their problems”), and he eventually resigned. Eventually the mayor, after determining the facts, asked him to rescind his resignation, and he rejoined the administration, albeit in another position. The D.C. mayor’s web page lists him as the mayor’s scheduler.

[sleeping]

Argh.

This was also the subject of a Straight Dope column:

[pyrrthon1]

“ghey” . To echo much of the above.

[BrotherCadfael]

Old whine, new bottles.

[Loopydude]

@pyrrthon1

“ghey” . To echo much of the above.

Thanks, pyrrthon1, it didn’t even occur to me to check UrbanDictionary.

If I take these definitions seriously, my nephew’s assertion that “ghey” is just “stupid” or “lame” seems more credible. There’s no denying the word’s origins, but perhaps there is sufficient evolutionary distance to warrant a more permissive response?

[matt_mcl]

Only if “I got Djoued” would provide acceptable distance, i.e. no.

[SolGrundy]

@Loopydude

If I take these definitions seriously, my nephew’s assertion that “ghey” is just “stupid” or “lame” seems more credible. There’s no denying the word’s origins, but perhaps there is sufficient evolutionary distance to warrant a more permissive response?

Well, from the urban dictionary:

A word that PC gaywads get there knickers in a bunch over. Are mute people offended by the word “dumb?” Are cripples offended by the word “lame?”

Of course, I’m just another PC gaywad, but I’d have to vote “no,” there’s not “sufficient evolutionary distance.” Especially if you look at the other entries and see that most of them acknowledge that it’s a very weakly-disguised reassurance that homosexuality is stupid and silly or something to be reviled.

IMO (since this is the forum for it): it’s not the word itself so much as the attempt to hide it that’s offensive. I mean, that’s just the way that teenagers talk – “gay,” “retarded,” etc. etc. It’s derogatory, but I don’t think it’s usually out genuine malice. I’ve used the word “gay” in a joking, derogatory sense lots of times, and I’ve gotten called on it lots of times.

What is offensive, though, is the idea that if you keep the sentiment behind it (homosexuals are all annoying, flaming queens and perverts) but change the spelling for the sake of being “politically correct” and not offending the over-sensitive gay community, then everything’s copacetic.

[LibrarySpy]

@SolGrundy

What is offensive, though, is the idea that if you keep the sentiment behind it (homosexuals are all annoying, flaming queens and perverts) but change the spelling for the sake of being “politically correct” and not offending the over-sensitive gay community, then everything’s copacetic.

I concur. The etymology of the word is only three years old or so, there’s no time and distance factor. I think the word came first, as a variant spelling of “gay,” and then the variant definition came later. “ghey” doesn’t annoy me unless someone claims its not “gay.” Of course it is.

Your nephew probably meant no ill will, and shouldn’t be badgered, but it’s still a word that demeans homosexuals, and I cringe every time a kid uses it.