"Girls Gone Wild" -- product of or failure of feminism?

Great Debates
21

Er, I don’t know how many of you have seen any GGW videos. I saw one, and there was quite a bit more than ‘brief tit flashes’. Just an FYI.

Also, in slight defense of Giggle Gaggle, I know many many women who, while they are interested in love, haven’t been able to separate love from money and looks. In other words, their mentality seems to be, ‘if I look as close to stereotypically attractive as possible (using surgery where necessary) then I will recieve the largest most expensive diamond, which will be the true indicator of a man’s love for me.’ Not the flat-out selling that Giggle Gaggle was talking about, but certainly a very commercial attitude towards their bodies and love and mariage.

This has been told to me in not quite as many words, but pretty frankly, by a number (though not a majority by far) of women I know.

22

I’m thinking it’s more a product of bad parenting than it is failed feminism.

(No, I’m not saying that all parents who end up with a skanky daughter were bad parents. I’m aware that some people do their best and still end up with a rotten kid.)

23

I saw a special on this on 48 hours, or 20/20 or some such. Basically, the GGW promoter hosts parties, where girls pay no cover charge (pun not intended :D), and where they get all drinks for free.

The guys that attend have to pay full price on everything of course.

Anyway, the promoters then ask for permission and film the “wilder” of the girls (the ones seen dancing flashing their boobs and bottoms etc).

Then, (it gets worse), the promoters ask the girls if they’d be willing to be filimed in private, “just having fun”.

They sign releases and such, and off they go to a hotel rooms in twos and threes to be filmed kissing and whatever with each other.

Some of the girls who had agreed to this were interviewed on the show. They were nice, well-educated, articulate young women.

They’d just made a bad judgment call in that moment. First, of drinking all the “free” (no such thing as a free lunch) drinks, and secondly, by not stopping, having a “back up” plan, or in staying away from the sleazy promoters once they were too drunk to make a “good” decision.

I’m not saying they didn’t “deserve” what they got. But to call them “skanks” and “hos” is pretty unfair and a double standard.

We don’t call young men “skanks and hos” (or the male equivelant) when they get all boozed up and make stupid decisions. We say “boys will be boys”.

Yes, imho, they made foolish choices. I don’t think it has a thing to do with their worth as young women, feminism, OR their parents’ good or bad raising of them.

Even the best kids can do dumb things.

24

Here’s to alcohol! The cause of…and solution to…all of life’s problems.

Woo hoo!

25

That’s because the thumb on the other hand is otherwise occupied.

26

It’s not a double standard. I insult males who get drunk and do stupid things all the time.

It tells me that their parents didn’t teach them NOT to drink until their judgment was significantly impaired.

And the mediocre kids can do dumb things, too.

27

Who, exactly, is “we”?

(n.b. I planned to respond even before I knew the identity of the poster.)

28

I’d say the reaction to GGW is the product of a failure of feminism. If feminism was a completed project, boys could see girls without clothes or having sex and just enjoy it without thinking it means she’s a greedy skank and that her parents must have been jerks.

Girls will be girls and sometimes they forget that just because someone wants to see their tits it doesn’t mean they don’t hate them.

29

Yes, you and others who insult them for doing stupid things, probably call them “jerks, idiots, dumb drunks” etc.

But they aren’t generally maligned SPECIFICALLY regarding their virtue.

Young man getting drunk and acting like an ass at a party: dancing wildly, quoting Jack Daniels alphabet “aauuaehuuuugaAAH”!!

People observing him: “What a drunken stupid ASS”

Young woman getting drunk and acting like an ass at a party: dancing wildly yadda yadda

People observiing her: “What a skanky ho-bag, what a slut”.

See what I mean?

30

TVAA, just because you happen to make fun of drunk men as well as women doesn’t mean it isn’t a double-standard. The general tendency in this society is to think of women who get drunk and make bad decisions as “hos,” “skanks,” “bitches,” etc.

Hell, just run a search on porn or sex or something like that on whatever illegal file-sharing program you care to name. 9 out of 10 times, you’ll get a long list of file names referring to “whore,” “ho,” “bitch,” “skanky bitch,” etc. But not a single word about the (often really nasty) men getting it on with all the skanks and bitches, etc. There is CLEARLY something going on there. I don’t have a problem with porn as such, but as a catalyst for degradation and sexism, it can be shocking. The treatment and reaction to pornography in our society is very revealing. It clearly shows the darker side of a society with MPD, a social norm that says one thing but clearly feels something else. It’s rather creepy.

It’s not GGW the product that is a failure of feminism, but the reaction to it. America is just messed up WRT sex, and particularly the role of womens’ sexuality.

31

Yeah! What she said!!!

32

It’s women who are responsible for the role of women’s sexuality, not men.

Women have sole decision and veto power when it comes to initiating sexual congress. They use this power to extract favors, money and upward social mobilization from men, often lacking in all relevant merit except ownership of a vagina.

No wonder men are bitter.

33

But there’s a difference between the term “general tendency in society” and the term “we”. The first merely assumes I have a statistic probability to view these women as “hos”, the second, in it’s barest form, blatantly states that I do.

34

But there’s a difference between the term “general tendency in society” and the term “we”. The first merely assumes I have a statistic probability to view these women as “hos”, the second, in it’s barest form, blatantly states that I do.

I wouldn’t deny that there is a tendency among a large segment of the male, and female population, to view these women in that light. But I would refute that and argue against that view just as surely as I am arguing those who would assume I hold that view.

35

Regarding the stupidity of those appearing in these videos… How exactly is consuming some alcohol and being filmed flashing or making out with another girl stupid? I’d reserve the characterization of ‘stupid’ for something which injures in some way those who do it. While I don’t see any benefits to going to these parties or appearing in the videos (other than it might be fun or sexually exciting), I also don’t see any direct negative consequences. As such I’d have to label the act value neutral, neither stupid nor smart.

36

I don’t know about other folk, but I tend to characterize both men and women by their behavior. If all they’re doing is being loud and obnoxious, then that gets a “drunken stupid ASS” type of comment, regardless of whether they’re XX or XY. If they’re coming on to everyone in the party, they’re being slutty, XX or XY. I tend to use slut or man-slut to refer to guys about as often as I do girls (maybe more so… guys are inherently sluttier, it seems). I also like the term “mimbo”.

Oh, and about the OP, I see nothing really wrong with GGW. Girls should know what they’re getting into, and from the 1000s of GGW commercials I’ve seen, it seems most of them just want to do something wild for a little while. Maybe it says something that GGW is apparently successful, but the women do seem to be making their own choices, which fits with the whole feminism thing, no?

37

Anybody wanna guess who’s still a virginboy?

:wally (but only a petzele).

38

Maybe it’s stupid because it will come back to haunt them in the future?

Personally, I don’t think it should and agree with those who think there’s a double standard and that we’re a still a bit uptight about female sexuality in this country. As far as I’m concerned, they’re having fun and harming no-one. Or if they’re not doing it for fun, they’re at least being compensated financially.

I’ve never seen the videos and don’t really feel the urge to buy one. I probably would take a look if Netflix carried them (boobs are nice to look at!). But if I’m in the mood for titillation, it’s either a sexy mainstream flick (like, say, Henry & June or hardcore porn…GGW is too half-assed AFAIC. :stuck_out_tongue:

39

The overwhelming majority of pornography is intended for men, so it’s not surprising that comments in porn files ought to have a very male skew.

Do a search on porn and you’ll find a substantial number of references to “huge cocks”, “hung black dude” and the like in the titles of the downloads, right alongside the “ho”, “slut” etc. mentions.

What’s going on, I think, is the objectification of women and of men – it’s just that men tend to objectify other men only as far as their functional sexual anatomy goes, shall we say.

However I also notice very frequent descriptors such as “babe”, “hot girl”, “beautiful”, and so forth used to refer to women on file downloads. It’s not all bad by any means.

There’s definitely a mysoginistic element present in some of the male population, and sexual freedom on the part of women stimulates a negative response in some males who may feel threatened by female sexuality.

However I wouldn’t pay any attention to the babblings of 17-year old boys on this matter. A few boys together referring to a woman in a sexual situation on video as a “ho” or a “slut” is perfectly normal for the dumbasses, it’s a way for them to assert themselves in front of their peers, it’s even a bonding experience. Put that same woman in front of them in the flesh, and they’ll practically fall over each other vying for the attention of the “dirty slut”.

Regarding GGW itself, if anything I think it’s a good thing, though I object to the tactics used by the organizers (seems like they could be taking advantage of inebriated women). Awareness of GGW is something that may loosen up that stiff American puritanism. These girls are having fun, they’re students out drinking with their friends and enjoying the attention. I’ve seen women on the wild side do rather worse things in public than grab their breasts in front of a videocamera in a bar, I really don’t consider something like that a major issue (especially if everyone is doing, one gets caught up in the moment as it were). And if the women in question are hot, it’s likely that we men are going to watch them, because we’re simple like that.

40

It will come back to haunt them in the future, or it may? I’d agree that the later is possible, but it’s not a direct result and it is dependent on the individual girl’s circumstances. There’s no way for us to determine whether it will come back to haunt any specific girl we see on the screen without knowing quite a lot about her. I very much disagree with the notion that it will come back to haunt all of the girls in the future.