All they care about is themselves. So why do you show your breasts? I have only one resonable conclusion: you LIKE to be objectified.
Oh for CRYING OUT LOUD!
How about:
Because it’s just FUN??? They’re ONLY breasts for Pete Sake! Sheesh, it’s not like we’re all the Virgin Mary who must be kept upon the “We are now SEXLESS Robot Superwomen intent on out fight to break through the glass sealing and save the planet” quest or something.
Now, I’m a pretty “prudish” woman by today’s standards, but the IDEA that showing one’s skin is subjecting a person to being “objectified” or is akin to that person “objectifying” themself. Good grief, That ATTITUDE is what is objectifying, not the showing of skin.
Dangit. I didn’t want this to get so long winded. Sorry.
I’m sorry for being so dense here but, let me get this straight.
“You deserve respect.” = “You are an object.”
What? That just doesn’t compute. I’m sorry.
Let’s break this down a bit more.
ATTITUDE = IDEA.
IDEA = Showing one’s skin is subjecting a person to being “objectified” or is akin to that person “objectifying” themself.
Well that sentence by itself isn’t true. Nudity in itself isn’t objectifying. I respect nudists. I don’t think they objectify themselves at all. But this isn’t just nudity. You are removing it from the context. We are talking about nudity amongst hundreds of unsupervised drunk teens, who have only one thing on their minds.
So, what you are saying:
“Showing skin amongst hundreds of drunk unsupervised young adults is objectifying” = objectifying
Showing skin amongst hundreds of drunk unsupervised young adults =/= objectifying
You will not be able to convince any sane logical mind of that.
The fact is:
Showing skin amongst hundreds of drunk unsupervised young adults = “You are here to give me sexual pleasure.”
And:
“You are here to give me sexual pleasure.” = “You are an object.”
“You are an object.” = “You don’t deserve respect.”
Therefore:
Showing skin amongst hundreds of drunk unsupervised young adults = “You don’t deserve respect.”(note the quotes.)
I’m sorry for beating a dead horse, but I cannot believe that I am getting so much argument here. This is the wierdest thing. How can you people say that a woman showing her breasts (or whatever) in front of a crowd of hundreds of young oversexed drunk hollering guys isn’t doing it for the sexual thrill? I don’t care if she’s drunk. What difference does that make? She is being objectified. She doesn’t care. In fact, she likes it. She takes her top off herself. She does it to herself. Therefore, she likes being objectified. End of story. I thought dopers were supposed to be logical intelligent people. Don’t take things so personally. Remove yourself from the equation and look at the argument rationally.
So the end result of all of this: I think Women objectify themselves when they show their breast to hundreds of drunk guys. It appears to be in their nature to do so since they appear to enjoy it so much at least when they are drunk and in the presence of hundreds of drunk young men.
You think I am objectifying Women by saying that Women objectify themselves. Maybe she convinces herself that she isn’t being objectified. That the guys… dang I don’t know what she could be thinking the guys are thinking when she shows them her breasts besides that they want to screw her. But I guess she puts it out of her mind or just says it’s all a lie. She just ignores it. Or she WANTS the guys to think that about her. Of course everybody wants to be desirable. But I guess she convinces herself that the guys want more than just sex. Or maybe that’s all she wants right then too. I don’t know. Either way, you and I and the drunks all know what (not who) she is to those drunks. Yeah THAT is objectifying. But she did it to herself, of her own free liquified will.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by prisoner6655321 *
**Dangit. I didn’t want this to get so long winded. Sorry. I’m sorry for being so dense here but, let me get this straight.
“You deserve respect.” = “You are an object.”
What? That just doesn’t compute. I’m sorry.
Let’s break this down a bit more.
ATTITUDE = IDEA.
IDEA = Showing one’s skin is subjecting a person to being “objectified” or is akin to that person “objectifying” themself.
Well that sentence by itself isn’t true. Nudity in itself isn’t objectifying. I respect nudists. I don’t think they objectify themselves at all. But this isn’t just nudity. You are removing it from the context. We are talking about nudity amongst hundreds of unsupervised drunk teens, who have only one thing on their minds.
So, what you are saying:
“Showing skin amongst hundreds of drunk unsupervised young adults is objectifying” = objectifying
Showing skin amongst hundreds of drunk unsupervised young adults =/= objectifying
You will not be able to convince any sane logical mind of that.
The fact is:
Showing skin amongst hundreds of drunk unsupervised young adults = “You are here to give me sexual pleasure.”
And:
“You are here to give me sexual pleasure.” = “You are an object.”
“You are an object.” = “You don’t deserve respect.”
Therefore:
Showing skin amongst hundreds of drunk unsupervised young adults = “You don’t deserve respect.”(note the quotes.)
Yeah, that’s brilliant.
Let’s play your little game, ridiculous as it is.
Bill Clinton shows up at a university to speak. He does it in a large auditorium in front of five hundred people = “You are here to give me intellectual and political pleasure”
And:
“You are here to give me intellectual and political pleasure” = “you are an object”.
“You are an object.” = “You don’t deserve respect.”
Therefore:
Talking politics in front of a crowd of people who are eager to hear about politicsq = “You don’t deserve respect”. "(note the quotes - for whatever reason)
We can do it religion (damned religious objects), sports (damned sports objects), and even literature (damned literary objects).
If seeing a woman’s breasts (alone, in public, or in public surrounded by lots of drunks) makes you lose respect for them, maybe the problem is yours, never everyone else’s.
Personally, I think it’s kind of sad. I think it’s done for attention. And, maybe, you can tell the rest of the class how it’s different than someone doing something else for attention - singing, dancing, juggling, whatever.
No pris, you missed, or misread my point. What I meant was that those, like the ones who state that they think women who do this are merely sexual objects, are the ones who are doing the objectifying, NOT the women themselves.
The attitude I see from the “if you show your boobs you’re a slut” crowd is NOT one of “you deserve respect” but of “sex is dirty and gross, boobs are dirty and gross, sexuality is dirty and gross, and YOU are dirty and gross, THEREFORE:”.
You are a disgusting slutpuppy = being objectified.
We’ve got young, healthy, gorgeous, sexual animals celebrating their young, healthy, gorgeous, sexy animalness.
My POINT is, SO WHAT? Making that, and the actions of those who choose to celebrate their sexuality in this way, out to be somehow “not respectable” or “objectifying females” is, imho, what is doing the objectifying, NOT the acts of the young, healthy sexual animals.
These people are acting appropriately to their age, station in life, and where they ARE at that time. (and NO, that does NOT then mean by default that ALL beautiful young people should dance naked in a GGW video).
They are AT a celebration, most times “Spring Break”. A celebration that has been echoed by most cultures throughout humankind. You think we invented appreciation of the lovely sexual body using something as silly as GGW?
These people are NOT disrobing and shaking their tailfeathers at the office or in the classroom. They’re not accosting little old ladies or women with children out in public. They’re at an event specifically designed for young people to cut loose and be wild for a small bit in time.
Would I personally want to see naked girls and their various parts? No, that’s why I don’t visit Spring Break, or the other locales likely to end up with this sort of celebration of youth.
Is it against some people’s religions? Yes of course. But THAT is another subject.
What we’re talking of now is very basic. Does the fact that a young woman chooses to show her sexuality cause feminism to suffer “cracks” to it’s foundations, OR is a backlash to it? That was the question. Not, is this morally right.
Strictly speaking of nudity and the types of celebrations these people engage in, should young women be thought of as “objectifying” themselves?
IMHO, no, and because of the reasons I state above.
Are there lots of young men at these events yelling and egging them on? Of COURSE!! Does the yelling and egging on represent these young men’s views that these girls are hos and skanks?
IMHO? No. I think that like someone a few pages ago so “eloquently” described that for the most part, these young men likely register something along the lines of “boobs, BIG boobs…etc”. And that it’s all in good fun. I doubt, that unless they’re some embittered jerk who is really making a comment on his anger that he can’t “get” one of these girls, rather than on what he actually thinks of her potential as a “ho,” that many of these young men give it a thought beyond THAT moment in time of “boob overload”.
Do I think that there are some (on BOTH sides) that think of these women as objects, skanks and hos? I’m sure there are, but that is THEIR problem, THEIR cross to bear, THEIR archaic and stupid attitude to own.
Likewise, “you are a gorgeous, sexy animal” = being objectified.
“You are a person worthy of respect” = being objectified.
Indeed, that was the question, and I say yes - because many people consider this morally wrong, and then these people participate in society and affect it.
I’d also like to add a qualifier - these girls are showing the sexuality to a crowd, and I think this of some significance.
Is it up to them?
This is true.
Yes it is their sole burden, unless they affect change and make it everyone’s burden.
That’s what I’m getting at. Regardless of how you or I or the girls feel, it’s the impression they leave on society that makes the difference. I feel that given our current state, GGW does more damage to feminism than good.
I thought the point of feminism (or one of them, anyway) was to teach little girls that they could aspire to be anything they chose; that being female didn’t lessen their intellectual capacity to reach for any goal of their liking; that “female drivers” and “weepy women” and similar stereotypes were not actually representative of women’s skills and ability to function in the world.
I agree with you CanvasShoes that it’s great when people feel good about their bodies, and I can understand why that aspect of GGW has some appeal.
But, really, is flashing drunken boys something we need to shoot for? Can’t we do a little better than that? And if we do lose control now and then, is that something to be proud of and hold high?
Sometimes it looks to me like everyone is content to behave like 13-yr-olds and I wonder where the adults have gone.
[QUOTE] Originally posted by prisoner6655321 *
**
The fact is:
Showing skin amongst hundreds of drunk unsupervised young adults = “You are here to give me sexual pleasure.”
And:
“You are here to give me sexual pleasure.” = “You are an object.”
“You are an object.” = “You don’t deserve respect.”
Therefore:
Showing skin amongst hundreds of drunk unsupervised young adults = “You don’t deserve respect.”*
The problem here is that ~you~ seem to have the view that someone who is sexually desireable or who makes themselves so = object.
Your whole little:
"You are here to give me sexual pleasure." = "You are an object."
Is that really what you equate someone to be who gives/can give you sexual pleasure? An object? You look at sex as something you are doing to an object?? Does the sexual act stem soley from the man, do you see sex as something a man ~does to~ a woman??
Even without love, intimacy etc, the sexual act is between two human beings, not an act between one man and an object. Or is it, to you?
This is perhaps why you have a hard time understanding why youre getting so much argument; your standard of measure, your own views on sexuality, is in my opinion anyway a bit twisted. Maybe youre just rare in that you equate sexually attractive being = object.
Hey, people like it when others find them attractive. This is biological in nature and will not ever go away no matter how much cultural programming is stuffed down someones throat.
Since it is biological in nature, it cant be wrong, it can only be inappropriate. Since none of the women seem to bare their breats in the middle of class or just suddenly when theyre walking down the street, it seems to me they used an appropriate venue to let themselves go and enjoy being female.
You mentioned self respect; well a woman who is not afraid to bare her flesh and be herself and have fun and to hell with other peoples opinions has far more self respect than a woman who doesnt because of something as superficial as cultural/social attitudes or what other people are going to think.
I don’t think anyone said the girls weren’t the ones ultimately reponsible.
Why should she even care if some of the drunk dorks at spring break are objectifying her? If she values the opinion of a drunken lout, she has bigger problems than being objectified. It’s the people doing the objectifying that have the problems, not the girl flashing her tits.
I really can’t see why the girls deserve blame for the ignorant attitude of some guys (and girls).
Or maybe as more girls do it, it will cease to be a burden. As it becomes more common, more people will take a “girls just wanna have fun” attitude about this.
I don’t know that this is something anyone’s “shooting for”. It’s just kids cutting loose.
I don’t see why they can’t hold their head high. They have nothing to be ashamed of as far as I’m concerned,
I completely disagree. The ‘impression left on society’ is completely and totally irrelevent to anything. As a matter of fact, its also something thats impossible to wuantify; which socety are we talking about? The society of people who like to party or the society of people who dont?
Youre basically saying people can do what they want unless or until other people know about it and can be influenced by it (i.e effect change). Thats absurd.
Society is nothing more than a collection of people, it is not a thing above and beyond that. If some girls dont mind showing their breasts, then that means some parts of society dont mind showing their breasts. If some men like it, than that means some parts of society like it. If some men dont, then that means some parts of society dont.
IMHO, it doesn’t really leave much more of an impression on society than the momentary “wow boobs” impression it makes on young men.
If you really think that it (GGW and it’s ilk) is creating “damage” to feminism and society you’re giving it WAY too much credit. Look around, feminism and it’s ideals seems to be proceeding just fine, more women are in more positions of power, etc…
Those that think it’s immoral (and again, imho, that’s a different debate than what the OP was asking), are going to continue to think it’s immoral, those that don’t, won’t.
In this society of “Will and Grace” and folks pretending to hump motorcycles during the St Paddy’s Day Parade in NYC, GGW is pretty damn tame really. So to say that it’s responsible for “damaging feminism” is pretty silly. If that’s true, then we better stop Fox Networks from proceeding with anymore sitcoms, because their humor is to sitcoms what girls flashing boobs is to young people partying.
IMHO, it doesn’t leave much more of an impression in feminism or it’s ideals than it does when you place your finger in the ocean.
Not sure what point you’re trying to make here, if THIS is what you think “being objectified” means, then hell, ANYTHING another person describes us as can be considered "being objectified.
She’s a really fine project manager = being objectified
He’s has a beautiful tenor voice = being objectified
Kinda takes the “sting” out of “being objectified” for flashing boobies doesn’t it???
I don’t think that anyone is saying “heck, when I grow up I want to be in a GGW video, YEP, that’s the be all and end all of my existance”.
Again, the context in which these kids are filmed is NOT very far removed from being 13 year olds.
For the most part, they’re college students cut loose for Spring Break, away from home for the first time, legal to drink for the first time, trying to “de-stress” from college and all it’s crap for the first time (depending upon which semester of course :D).
So no, I’m not saying “it’s something to shoot for” I’m saying that for some, it’s a natural consequence of the situation in which these kids find themselves, and that AS SUCH it needn’t be thought of as being such a horrible shameful event.
FTR, lol, I didn’t come into this thread to fight, Fight, FIGHT for the freedom to bare boobies, I just thought the subject was kind of interesting, but I’m surprised at how many people are so much MORE puritanical and prudish than I am.
Most people who know me think I’m Little Miss Goodie Two Shoes. I’m surprised to find that I’m really quite “slutty” LOL.
I hear you, CanvasShoes; similarly I’m not saying we should fear the boobies or be ashamed of the boobies. I’m not gonna go down to Ft. Lauderdale & attempt to re-clothe these girls or anything.
I respect the fact that not everyone’s idea of freedom consists of the opportunity to pursue educational goals or to make their own personal statement upon the world. I guess if the only thing someone has got to say about themselves is “here’s my tits”, well, I wouldn’t want to take that away from them. I just think it’s sad and kind of stupid. Although for some of them I’m sure it’s an outrageous moment they’d never repeat.
I just honestly don’t like the fact that women are out there representing our gender that way. I feel the same way about strippers and prostitutes and the movie boxes at Blockbuster where some half-naked actress is about to be victimized. I’d rather we not put ourselves in those scenarios. I wince when I see that, just as I’m sure many minorities wince when they see members of their race on the local news behaving like their stereotypes. It’s not the end of the world, but it sure isn’t helping anything.
I’m honestly perplexed as to why you think this activity and other more “respectable” activities are mutually exclusive. Who’s to say whether these young women, when NOT cutting loose during the short 2-week Spring Break" aren’t achieving great things at their various collegeges?
Just because they’ve cut loose and had that one silly moment in their history, why do you take the position of (and I quote you) “…if the only thing someone has to say about themselves is “here’s my tits”…” as being the ONLY thing these young women do in their lives??
Why is it that you’re thinking that the fact that they had a wild moment means that they’re planning on doing NOTHING different, better or more meaningful because of that??
As I said earlier in this thread, in MY young wild days, I entered a wet t-shirt contest. Just for fun, and I was stone cold sober. And believe me, it was a fun, momentary wild stunt, and it certainly was NOT “the only thing I’ve had to say about myself” over the years. My then husband was there with me, and none of the girls in the contest was “treated” to a “you skanky ho” type attitude from the audience. The prevailing attitude was one of fun and silliness. (and yes, a bit of “hell they’re hot”-ness, and thank GOODNESS because I’m old hideous and decrepit now!! At least I can console myself with having been hot once upon a time:D).
And I’m honestly sorry that it’s such a painful and distressing thing for you, but I’m still majorly perplexed by such a strong reaction to such a tiny unimportant part of a person’s life.
hmmm… as to “Representing our Gender…”.
There is just SO much more to women, so much more DONE by women, in much greater numbers and variety these days, that other than a few people like yourself, I really don’t think anyone sees this sort of thing, even that which goes beyond and into porn, as “representing our gender”.
This sort of thing is so unimportant, it really is just a fleck of dust in the wind compared to all of the other stuff that is out there being “represented by our gender”. I think you’re giving it way more importance and “danger” than it even remotely possesses.
Man, I wish you hadn’t posted that link. Not that I’m offended by it - it’s just that it makes me wish I was young and unencumbered and could go off to stuff like that on a whim. Ah, wanderlust…
The mods may well kill the link because of the two clicks to porn rule, but this is such a beautiful site you should check it out. Just google on “Fantasy Festival Art Images 2002” and that’ll get you there.
described that for the most part, these young men likely register something along the lines of “boobs, BIG boobs…etc”. And that it’s all in good fun. I doubt, that unless they’re some embittered jerk who is really making a comment on his anger that he can’t “get” one of these girls, rather than on what he actually thinks of her potential as a “ho,” that many of these young men give it a thought beyond THAT moment in time of “boob overload”.