God bless the atheists

Great Debates
101

Wow. Almost three pages before I even knew this was here.

I really don’t have what it takes to read the whole thread. The most important thing I’d like to clarify, though (because I did a piss-poor job of it in the Pit thread) is that I in no way meant to speak for Revtim. I didn’t mean to imply that Libertarian’s words were inappropriate to Revtim.

What I meant to imply is that if it were me in that position, I wouldn’t really be that welcoming to it. Revtim’s thread was specific, and I really didn’t respect that without quite hijacking it … but I kind of did. I sort of co-opted the jist of the OP for my own, somewhat related, agenda.

So I apologize to Revtim for not taking his thread as it was meant. I apologize to Libertarian for coming off like I was telling him how he should interact with Revtim.

Now that that’s all out of the way … here are my thoughts.

Not too long ago (truthfully I can’t remember if it was here or on another board), but someone made the comment that Christians were getting shat on hard over here. There were a spate of nasty comments pointed toward “blind faith” and whatnot. But it never really seems to me that atheists are stood up for when the same thing happens.

One comment that I made in the Pit thread that I’ll stand by is: “Why is [atheism] a hard thing to respect? Why is that any harder than respecting a Christian in his views.”

And no, I don’t get completely unruffled at Christmas cards, or some one saying they’re praying for me, but seeing the world as a non-Christian – most of what I see has a Christian bent.

Not a day goes by where I don’t hear someone say, “I swear to God …” and "on my soul … " and “the Lord works in mysterious ways.” And it’s a rare occurrence that I sneeze and I don’t hear, “Bless you.”

In all of that there is an inherent assumption by the speaker that I am a Christian too. It’s not egregious. No one’s dragging me into a church, but why must I be nice and not say anything? Why must I assuage a Christian in his rhetoric?

What if I decided to try to start my own tradition –
“Achoo!”
“There is no God.”

I would be looked at as an asshole disrespecting Christians everywhere, and all I’m doing is stating what I believe.

Why does a Christian’s beliefs outweigh my beliefs?

That is my gist. I will now go back and try to read the whole thread and see where my little screed fit’s in the scheme of things.

102

Most of the time it is not hard to accept the daily bombardment of Christian sayings that are flung my way, because they are common platitudes that many people I work with are saying without much thought. If they wish God to bless me I respond with, “May he bless you too.” If they ask God to damn something or someone, especially me, I do not join in however. :slight_smile:
Just trying to stay positive.

One of the major problems with this topic is that many Christians take to heart the words of the Bible that say that one should witness for others and convert others to the church of Jesus. Those that feel called to do this are hard to dissuade. But I try to think that they are doing the best they can to follow their religious leaders just as I am trying to follow my mine. Fortunately the Buddha did not ask his followers to convert others but only to teach if asked.

103

quote

Originally posted by Apos
My point is simply that I’d still LIKE it if there were or could be ceremonies and personal blessings that spoke to everyone, or allowed everyone to speak.

My Aunts’ funeral was like what you are referring to. Her family didn’t like the Church she attended so they had their own funeral.
Each person was asked to write something about her and one person read what everyone had written. It was actually very nice.

Actually for my own funeral I want the preaching, but I want my bluegrass played. I already have my songs planned. The very last song of the whole funeral I want a song by Roger Miller – I’m A Nut… I don’t want a dull boring funeral.

104

Jack, I’d like your honest feedback on how the Christians on this board come across to you – in standing by what we believe, are we acting offensively towards you? If I believe that God has both the power to act in your benefit and the intent to do so when asked, and proceed to ask Him in prayer to assist you in some concern you’ve expressed, am I violating your dignity as an atheist by doing so? This matters significantly to me, as part of the pledge I have made to Him and to my church is to respect the dignity of every human being, so you can see how the answer would affect my conduct.

105

—If I believe that God has both the power to act in your benefit and the intent to do so when asked, and proceed to ask Him in prayer to assist you in some concern you’ve expressed, am I violating your dignity as an atheist by doing so?—

I think the question to ask is not “why do I pray” because you have better answers to that for yourself than any non-believer, or perhaps even any believer, could give you. The question is “why am I telling this person that I am praying for them?” Again, there can be situations or motives in which I challenge ANY non-believer, no matter how offended by mention of prayer and god, to claim are illegitimate or rude to speak of: situations of the mutual sharing of experiences and how one deals with tragedy. But I ahve definately seen plenty of instances in which “I pray for you” is more of a paternalistic rejoinder than an expression of good will. It’s all well and good to say that people have to appreciate context: they do. But in reality sometimes people just aren’t capable of reading into too many layers of meaning or empathy or trying to tell the sincere from the condescending. People can be dense at times, even if they don’t mean to be. They can take things the wrong way. So the question is: is there a good reason for telling someone that you are praying for them? You have to judge for yourself.

106

You know, reading stuff like this convinces me just how weird I really am.

When I want to comfort someone who I know, or think is hurt, or in need, or suffering, I am most specifically moved to speak to them for one of two reasons. Both I know them, and my heart is heavy with their sadness, or, I don’t know them, but my Lord has commanded me to take their hearts into my own, and treat their tribulations as my own as well.

So I am either quite personally involved, or I am religiously involved. Now, a stranger sneezing in a parking lot doesn’t meet my level of souls needing comfort. The “Bless You” or even “God bless you” that I might utter is, in fact a hollow shell, based on a couple of hundred thousand sneezes I have witnessed. So is the one I hear when I sneeze. I respond “Thanks.”

But the Lord did not tell me to say “God bless you,” or “It is all part of God’s plan.” What He told me to say was “Is there anything I can do for you?” And that is a much different thing than “I will pray for you.” It quite literally means I should be willing to do what you need, because you need it. And it should not matter if you are an Atheist, or a devout Christian. And, it comes from my religious beliefs. So, if religious faith itself is objectionable to you, I am sorry, and I suppose that staying away from you is the only thing that I can do for you.

I won’t bring up praying for you unless I have some reason to believe that you feel a need for intercessory prayer. In that case, I would probably try to encourage you to join me in those prayers, out of a strong faith that the Lord wishes that we do so. But He won’t expect me to coerce you into it, by taking advantage of your momentary weakness. He would want me to help you be strong, with or without your prayers.

In the case where my spirituality itself is offensive to someone, I generally remove myself from their company. I cannot deny the Lord, but I am not interested in praying over the heathens.

Lib: Your original dichotomy was not parallel. Asking that atheists remain polite when well intended blessings are offered is not equivalent to expecting them mimic our own messages of faith. Doing so, in fact would seem condescending, and irreverent to me. I ask only that they not express rude opinions on my faith. In return I would try not to create any impression that I consider them not to be my brothers, even if not brothers in Christ.

On another matter entirely, I am well aware of the philosophical concept of the pinkness of the Invisible Pink Unicorn being transcendent of Her invisibility, but I have to ask.

Her Shadow?

Tris

“In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.” ~ Martin Luther King, Jr. ~

107

I’ll chime in that if somebody says they’re praying for me, it oogs me out. Dunno why. I suppose a part of me feels repressed by it. I’ll have to read this thread all the way through and perhaps repost on the matter.

:smiley:

Esprix

108

Apos

You have a remarkably keen insight. I remember my first encounters with you in the old ontology thread. For whatever reason, most likely my own hubris, I saw you as something of a bothersome gnat.

Since that time, I’ve seen either you or me or both of us grow enormously. Your intellectual honesty is astounding. As time goes by, you remind me more and more of Spiritus Mundi. You possess a razor sharp mind. You are capable of stepping outside yourself and your prejudices to see viewpoints that differ from your own. You use your arguments not just to rebut, but to edify.

I don’t know why I’m saying this here now. I was just moved to do it. I’ve come to trust you. And I believe that I can express to you how I feel, opine, or think, and you will refrain from using it as an opportunity to build strawmen and argue for argument’s sake. Instead, you will use it as an opportunity to clarify, comprehend, and learn.

Now, when I see your name, I zero in on the post as quickly as I can. I turn down the television so I can concentrate. I read your posts once, twice, and then again, savoring each phrase as I try to mimick the thoughtful way you read the posts of others.

We don’t usually agree on much of anything. But the remarkable thing about you is that, like Spiritus, you always leave me grateful that I got to interact with you. Even when I have not convinced you, I feel like I’ve been heard with fairness and respect.

I don’t know whether you even noticed how put off I was by you in the beginning, but it weighs on my heart and I feel guilty for it. I’d like to say I’m sorry, even if you don’t think there is any need for an apology. This is not to say that I think you will never again piss me off and vice-versa, but anyway, in the words of the Austrian Emperor, “Well. There 'tis.”