In this Pit thread, Revtim expressed his grief over the loss of his father and the generally disappointing way things seemed to be going for him. I did as I always do and wished God’s blessing upon him.
He made clear that he was an atheist. And Jack Batty expressed that my words to Revtim were inappropriate. And I didn’t want to participate further in that hijack than I already had, so I’m opening this for discussion.
Some time back, I opened a thread in IMHO asking how atheists react when they get Christmas cards. The general consensus, as I recall, was along the lines of what’s the big deal. Most respondents said that they appreciated people’s good thoughts unless they seemed to be prosyletizing or something.
So I want to broaden that discussion and inquire in what circumstances, if any, a theist may wish blessings upon an atheist. And I wonder whether especially the hard atheists apply the ethic both ways: in other words, if the theist is to be silent about his God in consideration for the atheist, is the atheist to specifically mention the theist’s God in consideration for him? Are both parties bound by the rules of being sympathetic?
I’m also interested in points of view from both parties. Does the atheist feel personally insulted when the theist says “God go with you”, knowing full well that he is talking to an atheist? And does the theist feel personally insulted when the atheist says, “All the best to you”, knowing full well that he is talking to a theist. For that matter, how is the Christian to react when someone says, “Pan be with you”. Or Allah. Or whatever.
Speaking for myself, that doesn’t bother me, although I will admit that when people curse my God, it bothers me a lot. I should let it roll off, but I’m not that spiritually mature. Does an atheist see a blessing as a sort of curse?
I hope this won’t get hijacked into a prove God exists or you can’t prove that you exist discussion. I’d really like to stick with the ethics and forego the metaphysics if possible. Thanks.
I don’t have any problem with someone responding to my tale of grief by saying to me, “May Allah bless your house”, or with being told, “I’m activating the intergalactic crystal prayer chain for you”. It doesn’t have anything to do with “religion” as such, but with the other person caring enough about me to do whatever he usually does by way of interceding with a Higher Power on my behalf. If he thinks the Invisible Pink Unicorn can help me with my troubles, then I’m just grateful that he’s going to take the trouble to ask.
But similarly, I wouldn’t expect an atheist to be offended by my telling him, “I’ll remember you in my prayers.”
Person doesn’t know I’m an atheist, the response is (a) (casual encounter) - smile, nod, or other pleasant but non-committal response. (b) (friend or other person I’m going to deal with long-term) "thanks, but I’m not religious.
Person knows I’m an atheist - annoyance or amusement, depending on my mood. I consider the person to be disrespectful of me; how I respond depends on whether I’m in the mood to be dissed.
Person who repeats or reinforces “blessing” after I’ve told them/reminded them I’m an atheist - attack with box cutter.
I appreciate the sentiment (though not if it’s used as a token of some kind of moral ‘superiority’) in entirely human terms: I am pleased that you wish good things for me, even though I don’t believe the mechanism by which you hope them to happen.
Truth be told, I don’t know many atheists in real life, so when the “time is right” for a “God bless you,” or something along those lines, it is usually well-recieved. Jews and Muslims both really don’t seem to mind when I, an unabashed Christian, say “God bless.” I think that, in case one of my non-monotheistic bretheren were to need a kind word, I would be genuinely kind, but still leave God out of my words. “Cheer up. Things are rarely as bad as they seem,” or something along those lines.
When I need such kind words, I accept from every party their kind words. Of course, if someone were to come up and say “Odin bless you,” I might get a tad peeved. The exact same sentiment could be expressed in secular words, so the extra “Odin” reference might be constued as unnecessary, and therefore, offensive.
Therein, I believe lies the difference. Saying “God bless you” to someone in their time of need isn’t, on face, offensive. But, if you know for a fact that the person doesn’t share those beliefs, than it would probably be more tactful (as well as more comforting) to speak in their “native tongue.”
Of course, if someone were to barely know me, and proceeds to wish upon me the blessings of Pan, I might not be offended. The good rule of thumb is to make your words as relevant to the person you are speaking to as possible. After all, isn’t that what comfort is all about?
IMHAO, it is generally appropriate to “wish God’s blessings” upon a person, regardless of the state of their own faith. It is not, however, terribly good manners to do so after the atheist in question has made it clear that he finds such statements misguided, annoying, etc.
Revtim started a thread complaining about such statements in his circumstances. You then made exactly such a statement to him. Given that context, it ends up looking like a provocation. A non-theological expression of sympathy, or a silent word of prayer, would have been the better course.
Insult is subjective: if I know that an atheist (or a different kind of theist) is going to be offended by my saying that I will pray for him, then I shouldn’t say it.
But I wouldn’t expect him to be offended by it merely because he is an atheist, and I don’t consider it inappropriate for a theist to tell an atheist that he will pray for him, or whatever. The atheist would have to say explicitly, “look, thanks, but this bothers me” before I would think it inappropriate.
I think I differ from Sua here - I don’t think it’s disrepectful to an atheist to say that you will do something which you believe to be of value to him, even though the does not believe it to be of value. But it is disrepectful to persist in telling him what you are doing when you know he prefers not to be told.
But another, and more difficult, issue. If you know an atheist prefers not to be prayed for, is it appropriate to pray for him nonetheless, and just not tell him?
I am a little curious about the motives of an atheist who would get annoyed by it - surely if you don’t believe it, then someone saying something religious to you shouldn’t make any difference: your annoyance appears to indicate some sort of belief or superstition. This is why I don’t mind going to church on special occasions, and willingly attended Buddhist and other religious ceremonies on my travels.
I don’t get annoyed by it. Even by people who know my beliefs, or non-beliefs as the case may be. I just see it as them wishing me good fortune, their condolences, etc. It is not really a big deal.
If I were an atheist, and someone I knew well (and who knew me well) were to wish God’s blessings upon me, I would be confused as to the motive. Kind of like saying “At least you have your health” to someone you know has cancer. It may be kind words, but in context, it can come off as pretty mean.
I don’t think atheists, as a group, vary any less than any other group in the range of tolerance and irritability they possess. I’d expect the response would depend on who you were talking to, and what kind of day/week they’ve been having.
I would expect most of them to accept your statement for what it is, an expression of concern, regardless of the fact that it implies beliefs they don’t share. (Unless phrased such that it translates to something like “I’ll pray for your poor damned soul, you godless heathen.”) Of course, I’d expect a Christian to respond the same way, if someone said to them “Allah be with you” (and vice versa). But, judging by some of the comments already posted, I may be expecting too much.
Bottom line; if you intend it to be supportive, it should be accepted as such. And, if they’re too touchy to take it that way, well, the that’s their problem. No need for you to feel bad about it.
Sua didn’t address the other side of it though. He described how things would move from mild amusement or annoyance to the box-cutters if a theist called upon God’s blessings for him knowing that he’s an atheist.
But he didn’t say whether he felt beholden to have the same consideration when the tables are turned. Should he not say something along the lines of “may your God comfort you” if he knows that the person is a theist? After all, he expects the theist to be sympathetic with his (Sua’s) beliefs.
As to my remarks to Revtim, I trust that he can see the difference between “God comfort you” and “Your agony is part of God’s plan.”
How does a Jew feel when someone says “Merry Christmas”? This seems like a similar case, but not quite the same, for the following reason: “Merry Christmas” amounts to an assumption that the person is going to be celebrating Christmas, while “God bless” doesn’t make any assumptions about the person’s actions or beliefs.
Still, if I were a Jew I think I would be offended if someone who knew my religious beliefs continually said “Jesus be praised!”, etc., when I was around.
In sum, I am not offended by the occasional “God bless”, but anything that approaches proselytizing bothers me.
As far as whether atheists should mention God around theist friends, the answer is No. The general rule is to avoid unpleasant subjects. There is no ettiquete requirement to cater to other’s sympathies. Democrats need not say good things about Bush when around Republicans. But they might refrain from bashing him, at least if they want to remain amicable.
In general, one should express sympathy and desire to help honestly from what’s in them, with the form of the expression constrained by what one knows of how the sufferer may receive it. If it’s known that said sufferer doesn’t mind such expressions, go right ahead; if it’s known that they do, making them anyway is less than right speech–it seems to me to be the equivalent of praying loudly on the streetcorner for others to hear, instead of quietly in one’s heart or in fellowship with other believers.
As an atheist, I don’t mind someone telling me “God Bless You”, “May God bless your house!”, et al. Never have.
Heck, I had a woman, here at work, buy me a Bible for Christmas. She knows I am an atheist, but this was her subtle attempt to sway me. (She said so herself.) I never even got upset about that. No point in it. She believes, was not forceful about it, was sincere, and was presenting me with a very nice leather bound Bible. (With Christ’s words in Red. :))
Heck, regardless if I believe in God or not, the meaning behind the ‘blessing’ is only meant to favour me, so I go with it and say “Thank you.”
A statement that could be intended to be a sign of concern and compassion (“may God protect and guide you”) can become a hope that the person change their beliefs (“may you accept the truth of God’s love”) if it’s said in the wrong way.
I might wish Lib well in that I’d hope he’d abandon his ideas about necessary existence, but telling him that would be extremely rude.
Like most things, it’s context. As an atheist, it doesn’t vex me when folks say “God bless you,” or even what Lib said in the other thread- “may God comfort you.” However, when my father committed suicide and I was told at the funeral that “it was all part of God’s plan”, only my inability to find sharp objects at that moment kept me from a multi-state killing spree. (And believe me, I looked!) I think that “god bless” is shorthand for “I’m thinking of you, and hope that things are going well for you, and that life becomes favorable for you.” Hard to be upset by this.
So, to recap- god bless is ok. “God’s plan” will get you a beating.
uh… if a unicorn is invisible… how could it be pink?? AAAHH!! Dont foist your religious claptrap on me!! PAGAN!!!
Which reminds me. An atheist is someone who doesnt believe in a god (any god) so I dont believe any atheist would say anything like “Odin be with you” or “Pan give you strength” because that would make them pagan not atheist. Most atheists I know just shrug off as christian ignorance or bias any forced religious intentions like christmas cards or prayer or blessings.
Were I, as a catholic, say “Allah Bess you” to a muslim who sneezes would insult because I show ignorance of Islamic customs. To do so also trivializes my own religion. I know of no rule, doctrine or edict that says all catholics must convert all non-catholics they encounter. I know of a few that says we must teach the way of God. It says nothing about forcing it upon them. If an atheist is set in their ways, pray for them secretly and dont force your belief on them.
