God bless the atheists

Great Debates
21

One of the problems we face in the Society for Creative Anachronism is that many people choose to follow a persona which didn’t get along too well with the offical church at the time, and also choose to react to references to modern religion as if they were reacting to the persecution back in the day; so, for example, someone with the persona of a jew who had been exiled from Spain rather than suffer the Inquisition would not like to hear references to Christianity.

This is a problem primarily in deciding what text to use during court presentations, and the choice of music for various performances; as a member of a large choir, I have heard several people say that if the choir was expected to perform religious (i.e., Christian sacred) music, they would, at best, not perform those pieces, and, at worst, leave the choir.

The rule of thumb I was given when I took over conducting the choir, which is my point here, is this: In any case where you’re wondering whether or not non-Christians would be offended, replace all instances of the word “Christ” with “Satan” and decide if YOU would be offended by it. So, as stated above, saying, “You’ll be in my prayers” is probably non-offensive. Saying, “You know that Christ loves you” will bother some people.

22

i am an agnostic at a catholic school and at least for me, i don’t mind if someone tells me that they wish me the best, whatever the context. but someone who knows very well that i do not believe in their god but tries to comfort me in a hard time through their religious beliefs, well, it’s not going to comfort me. i dont mind the general well-wishings, but when people try to ‘convert the heathens’ i am bothered.

you can mean something with good intentions, but it may not come out that way: ‘the striped dress makes you look thinner’ can end up saying ‘you look fat’ and ‘may god comfort you’ can end up saying ‘convert to my religion’ no matter if that’s how it was meant. when people are going through hard times they are more often very sensitive.

for me, it often seems that my religious friends think it’s sad that i am not religious. i dont believe in god but i dont believe in no god, i just believe that if there’s something out there, i dont know about it. and i cant make opinions on something i dont know. it’s very easy for a non-believer to feel that others are trying to convert them or impose beliefs, and that can be offensive. everyone should just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

23

I agree with what ** blanx ** said. As an athiest, when people tell me that they’ll pray for me, or invoke a blessing for me, I’m touched by their thoughtfulness, not offended. They’re sending good thoughts my way, and thinking about me and my troubles. I think it’s very kind.

I am horrifed by what was said to ** blanx ** at the funeral: “It’s all part of God’s plan.” That’s just plain rude to say to a person who’s grieving, regardless of whether it was a death from old age, disease, accident, or suicide. The image of a deity carefully planning to cause your family pain and sorrow is not one which you need at such a time. Whereas saying something along the lines of “May God comfort you,” gives an image of a loving deity who empathizes with your anguish, and wants to give you a bear-hug, and also expresses the sentiments of the visitor. There’s a world of difference, in my opinion.

Among the athiests I know, a mere mention of God is not enough to invoke anger. Lashing out at someone for saying something along the lines of “God bless you,” is just plain rude, regardless of whether you’re a believer or not. Constant PREACHING, on the other hand, will bring down the wrath of Godless Heathens, Inc., and will get your name erased from many an invitation list.

24

It is never wrong for a theist (Christian, Jew, Atheist) to pray for the physical, emotional, mental, or spiritual well-being of another, whatever his or her religious beliefs or lack thereof.

What may be incorrect is the expression of that intent to that other person – because it can easily be seen as an attempt to proselytize them contrary to their will. IMHO, respect for them as individuals takes highest priority; you will “witness” to them by treating them as individuals on the same moral plane as yourself, and showing by your compassion towards them the love of God that you would wish to share with them without overtly insisting that they listen to your views on faith, especially at a time of grief or other emotional upheaval.

As for Revtim’s point in the Pit thread that gave rise to this, I have a difficult time with why an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God might allow things that hurt people to happen, and reduce it to His forbearance to interfere with free will. Hence, I don’t think it’s “God’s will” that something that has a negative impact on someone happens – except in the very restricted sense that He might have intervened and didn’t.

25

I didn’t know I was required to. And, as your OP asked for only the “one side,” I didn’t think I was expected to. :rolleyes:

  1. “your God” implies a belief that said God exists. Atheists don’t believe said God exists. Hence, were I to say what you suggest I’d say, I’d be lying.
  2. I don’t equate being sympathetic with anothers’ beliefs with hypocritically asserting something you don’t believe. Hell, most of my theist friends would be similarly quite annoyed if I were to make such a patronizing statement.
  3. “I hope things get better,” or similar non-theological statements of comfort or support, amazingly enough, seem to get the job done.

And I don’t expect a theist to be “sympathetic with my beliefs.” I expect them to be respectful. If I have Jewish friends over, I don’t serve pork - indeed, I order in kosher take-out and serve it all on styrofoam plates. I don’t do that out of “sympathy,” but because I know what there preferences and beliefs are, and act accordingly.

Why the fuck can’t you?

Why should we have to “trust” that he’ll understand? Why can’t you simply act in accordance with his expressed wishes? You don’t know how to type “I’m sorry for your loss?”

Or will your god only take action if you type the words on an internet message board?

Sua

[Fixed quote tags. – MEB]

26

An atheist saying “God bless you” is not the equivalent of a theist saying “Best wishes”, it’s the equivalent of a theist saying “even though there is no God, I hope things work out OK for you”–in other words, a lie (the theist saying “there is no God” is lying about his or her beliefs) told for the sake of politeness. “I hope your cancer test comes back negative” is not a lie (unless the speaker secretly wishes you dead); it may omit that the speaker “hopes (and prays to God) that your cancer test comes back negative” or that the speaker believes that the results of your cancer test (along with all other things) will be in accordance with God’s will, but all statements omit information.

“May your God comfort you” is a bit more artfully worded than that, of course–does it mean “may your God [who really exists] give you aid and comfort you” (with the part in brackets being a lie the atheist is apparently expected to tell for the sake of politeness); or does it mean “may your belief in a non-existent God nonetheless provide you with comfort”? Anything explicit along the lines of the latter strikes me as likely to be offensive to the theist.

It’s interesting that you seem to see noncomittal words which could be uttered by either theists or atheists as being as explicitly atheistic as a direct affirmation of belief in God is explicitly theistic. Since one definition of atheism is “lacking belief in God” there is some logic to this–“The quick red fox jumped over the lazy brown dog” would then be an atheistic sentence, having no reference to God in it. (As opposed to “The quick red fox jumped over the lazy brown dog, as God willed it.”) This sort of thinking could lead to a rather totalitarian mindset, and some would use it to argue that, for example, if the U.S. government does not acknowledge God, the U.S. government is atheistic; which paradoxically would seemingly be a violation of the First Amendment. But atheism is not a religion, and so it’s perfectly proper for the U.S. government to be non-religious–“atheistic”-- in its actions.

So, is it offensive for a religious person to give a religious greeting to a non-religious person? Not necessarily. It will depend on the context of the relationship and on what exactly is being said and how it is being said. (“I have cancer.” “Oh, God, I’m so sorry to hear that! I’ll be praying for you—don’t give up hope!” vs. “I have cancer.” “I pray the Holy Spirit will soften your heathen heart so that you will receive Jesus as your personal savior before you die, and thus be spared an eternity in the Lake of Fire.”) However, an atheist simply being NON-religious should not be offensive to a religious person. (“I have cancer.” “Oh, I’m so sorry to hear that. They’ve made a lot of advances in the treatment of cancer these days–don’t give up hope!”) Being ANTI-religious certainly might be. (“I have cancer.” “Well, I guess your Magical Sky Pixie didn’t protect you very well, huh? But I still hope that your immune system–the product of blind, undirected evolution–and modern medicine–the product of unaided human reason and experiment–will save you.”)

27

Is there any power behind the words, “God bless you”, apart from who says it and what their beliefs are?

28

For the sake of this debate…possibly.

Puh-leaze, let’s not get into this.

29

I agree more or less with what Polycarp said, although I’ll add that, as an atheist, it rubs me the wrong way when people say, “God Bless You,” or, “I’ll be praying for you,” or the like. It’s not fair of me, but it reminds me too much of the extremely judgemental fundamentalists who’ve said such things to me as code for, “I fear and hate you and take this opportunity to show my superiority to you while pretending to be nice to you.”

I almost started a Pit thread about a letter I got in the mail today. And it wasn’t even to me.

See, a local woman died a few weeks ago, and her obituary asked that in lieu of sending flowers, mourners should make a donation to our humane society in her memory, and gave our address. This happens several times a year, and we’ve gotten in about half a dozen donations in her memory. Well and good.

This morning I get an envelope addressed to “The Family of Angelina Pickering [not her real name]”, but at our address. I figured that some mourner wasn’t thinking clearly and had sent us a donation but had mislabeled the envelope.

Nope. Inside the envelope is a Jesus tract and an anonymous typewritten letter to the family telling them that her death was all part of God’s plan. It was rife with Bible quotes. And it was clear that the anonymous letter-writer didn’t even know the woman: he began the letter by saying, “I understand that you are grieving the death of one Angelina Pickering…”

Imagine being the family and receiving this proselytizing letter while you’re mourning the death of your wife, your sister, your mother. As obnoxious as it was, imagine if you were an atheist who received it. Wouldn’t you be infuriated?

And the next time someone said, “I’ll pray for you,” mightn’t you remember that jerkish anonymous letter you received?

For me, it’s awful folks like that anonymous letter-writer that get in the way of my acceptance of good religious people. Although I’d know, Libertarian, that when you say, “I’ll pray for you,” you mean it without any self-righteous vitriol, I’d also be reminded of the self-righteous vitriol I’ve heard behind those words from other people. Rather than comforting me, then, the words would make me cringe.

My father’s going into surgery on Wednesday. Pray for him if you want – just don’t let me know about it. :slight_smile:

Daniel

30

Three things: I was raised Jewish, and I still get a little uncomfortable with Christmas things, like being wished Merry Chritsmas and the tree we had this year. I think what bugs me is that people assume I believe like they do, when I definitely don’t. My perverse nature got a kick out of explaining to people that my family goes for the secularholiday of Christmas, but not the creche or anything. I’m just tactful enough that I kept this to people I kinow reasonably well or those that really bug me.

As an atheist, I agree with those that said the context is everything. It rarely bugs me when people say god bless, but someone who knew I was an atheist trying to comfort me with “it’s in God’s plan” would make me want to describe to them my pleasure in the secular holiday of Christmas.

Finally, I have another twist on the thoughtful OP. A friend’s husband just got called up to help in the war preparations and asked all of her friends to “Pray for Billy-Joe-Bob.” First, what do the folks in this thread think of that? Second, what about my reponse, which was to tell her that I’d keep his welfare in mind? That’s as close as I can come to praying.

31

When someone says, “God bless you” to me, I usually try to respond with “thanks.”

The only reason I might act otherwise is if I thought that the proferred blessing was insincere or masked an ulterior motive.

32

Thanks for the fix, MEB.

One thing I’d like to make clear about my original response: when I said that, in some circumstances, I would react with ‘amusement,’ I did not mean that I think “aww, look at the cute, silly theist. Isn’t he precious?”

Instead, I meant that, in the face of the single-mindedness of some people who continue to act in a way you’ve asked them not to act, a head-shaking chuckle is sometimes the best response.

Sua

33

As you wish, Daniel. But will you kindly let him know that I am doing what I can to assure his successful surgery and recovery. Because, from my perspective (which I realize you do not share), I am. :slight_smile:

34

I’m an agnostic and am perfectly happy to accept prayers on my behalf from those who mean well by it, but the last situation you describe irks me somewhat.

Some work colleagues of mine were in a train crash [aside: Southall, for those of you who know it] and emerged with minor physical injuries and psychological traumas, but otherwise okay; six (IIRC) other people (whom I didn’t know) were killed in the crash. A very religious co-worker commented about God’s mercy in sparing our colleagues, to which I asked “So why didn’t God like those other six people?”. She subsequently refrained from making similar remarks in my presence.

I usually offer “well wishes” or “good thoughts”, or tell them I will be “thinking of them”. This has served me well in all cases thus far.

I also say “Gesundheit” rather than “Bless you” when someone sneezes, which for some reason makes people stare. What’s the big deal? I want them to be healthy; “holy” is optional.

35

I am somewhere between atheist and agnostic.

I would second what several have said in answer to the OP – whether I would be offended by someone’s saying “God bless you”, etc., depends a lot on the intent.

I don’t publicize my beliefs. And since proclaimed atheists are certainly in the minority where I live in the US, most people making such a comment probably haven’t given much thought to the possibility that it might offend.

So I tend to give the benefit of the doubt in such situations (especially if the person doesn’t know me very well). Anything less serves to confirm the strawman created by fundamentalists, and breathed live by Madalyn Murray O’Hair et al.

Also, my basic assumptions differ from one religion to another – e.g., since Judaism has not historically tried to win converts, I might be less likely to assume that a Jew who said “God bless you” was doing passive-agressive proselytizing than was, say, an evangelical Christian.

36

I appreciate friends’ wishing God’s blessings on me or saying they’ll pray for me, because I take it as meaning they care. Sometimes I wish they’d show it in more direct ways such as buying me lunch, but that’s up to them.

However, if a stranger or casual acquaintance tells me the same thing, I can only guess what the motivation is.

(a) This person truly cares about strangers, which is nice, but doesn’t have much to do with me.
(b) This person has some sort of intercessory-prayer quota to meet, which means I’m just being used.
© I’m being proselytized in a sneaky way that denies me the opportunity to argue without looking ungrateful.

In normal circumstances, I’d assume (a) and not be offended. However, if I had specifically stated that I was a nonbeliever and not comforted by religious statements, I might lean toward (b) or ©.

“It’s all part of God’s plan” is not something I would want to hear from anyone after a personal tragedy, especially considering what God’s ultimate plan is for the majority of human souls, according to many believers.

I don’t see why a believer should be offended by a nonbeliever’s nonmention of God in any expression of condolences or good wishes. It seems to me a lie would be more offensive than a sincere expression of caring.

I have had a couple of people express annoyance when I say “Gesundheit” after a sneeze, but I don’t feel right saying “bless you” and it feels awkward to say nothing. I’ve had mixed results with “shall I call 911?”

37

I don’t know if this is a hijack or if it’s simply another dimension of the same problem, but here’s a little story.

A few years back (and it seems so strange that there are now years between me and this event) a friend of mine died of a particularly cruel disease (she was a very physical, excitable person, and it crippled and hardened her movements). She was really important to our group of friends, and was beloved by tons of different people: she was just a plain neat, creative, loving person. She also was not what you would call a Christian in her beliefs: she was very spiritual and speculative about all sorts of things unseen and afterlives, but there was no particularly pressing need for the idea of a God, a savior, or other such things.

At her wake, however, her parents, who are religious, had a preacher come in and speak. And his secretarian sermon was basically on the subject of “How can we use my favorite book of the Bible to explain why God exists and loves us, despite the seeming counterfactual that he made a world where someone so young can die of such a terrible disease?” In other words, instead of talking about her life (which he admitted that he knew very little of), he tried to argue that we should renew our belief in his god.

Now, I didn’t find this offensive. It was her parents wake, and even though the sermon was probably irrelevant to her life (not something SHE would have been worried about), I’m sure it was relevant to what her parents were probably struggling with. But it certainly was pretty odd to have someone’s death be an opportunity for pushing one particular opinion about metaphysics (let alone a secretarian one), especially at the funeral of a person who was open to just about anything.

So it got me wondering about if and how people of very different beliefs can gather together to deal with something like death that doesn’t presume some set of beliefs over another. It’s particularly hard when people don’t even share the same ideas about the significance of death, or the things one is supposed to worry about. Yet, at an event like this, we DO want everyone to be able to come together as one, to have a unified ceremonial practice.

We don’t necessarily have to take up the death angle here, and lose the topic at hand, but it seems like the same situation: we have a situation, be it death, or tragedy, and we want to wish someone well in a way that is authentic to us, but to the other person seems to presume at them a belief that they don’t share.

I think atheists have it easier than theists here. An atheist can authentically simply wish a theist well WITHOUT saying or even implying anything like “there is no god.” (the idea of an atheist speaking about “your God” seems silly in theory and rude in practice)

But a theist who sees all well-wishing and tragedy in the context of their God can’t express their authentic feelings without mentioning how they think God plays into it. And, no matter how honestly that’s meant, in this culture that, to many people, bears the unavoidable connotation of you taking advantage of tragic moment to shill for your particular belief, or presume it on them (well, I know you’re sad: if only you stopped denying that God exists it would help matters). That’s not exactly fair to theists: they bare an extra burden brought on about by other theists with whom they may not even agree.

But then again, think about it this way: to say God Bless may be what one hopes will happen, but that’s NOT quite the same thing as simply expressing a personal feeling (which for theist and atheist alike can be purely emotive, without presuming any particular ideas other than “I exist, you exist, and I care about you and your troubles”). Personal feelings like (“I’m sorry that happened.” “Is there anything I can do?” “I hope he gets better.”) can be expressed without adding in your own personal take on HOW someone gets better. I mean, if someone said “I’m sorry that your back was broken” that’s one thing, but if they added: “I hope that Bush is defeated next year so that stem cell research can recieve federal funding again to help you out.” seems a little presumptive, especially if the person who’s back was broken is a Republican who doesn’t think stem-cell research is a good idea.

Again, people’s mileage there may vary. Can the Bush-loving Republican look at that statement and say “well, I understand that they dislike Bush and support stem-cell research, and thus that was simply their way of expressing the hope that I get better”? Sure.
But it’s hard to deny that there wasn’t also an element of going beyond simply expressing such a hope: that something else was on their mind that they know I don’t agree with, but felt the need to bring up anyway.

So, I dunno what to conclude. I definately think that theists bare an extra burden in such situations, because they face a tension between being inappropriate and being less than authentic (however, I think we could modify that: it needs to include more than just “authentic” because simple, unadorned commiseration IS authentic: it’s more like by not mentioning God they aren’t being comprehensively authentic).

38

Sua and atheists who feel similarly, I’ve a question for you, if I may.

You say that you expect theists to be respectful of your beliefs, which I certainly agree they ought to be, as this is an important guideline in all cases. However, if Bob the Theist happens to believe that he is commanded to say something like “may God comfort you,” or some such thing to which you would object, isn’t asking him to not do so disrespectful of his beliefs? What do you do in such a case?

39

What Spiritus said.

OTOH, I did find it highly offensive when our receptionist would greet me with “Smile! Jesus loves you.” Unlike Sua, however, I didn’t go after her with my boxcutter (;)), just gritted my teeth and bore it because it wasn’t worth the arguement.

40

g8rguy, I would hope that people whose beliefs required them to disrespect others would understand that others might not agree with those beliefs.

I respect everyone’s right to believe differently than I do. I don’t respect disrespect. Depending on the situation, I would try to correct, avoid or ignore someone who couldn’t demonstrate a basic level of respect for my feelings.