God bless the atheists

Great Debates
41

To me, this is what it’s all about. Why does a theist feel that it’s necessary to inform a known atheist that the theist will pray, or ask God to bless the atheist? If you want to wish someone well, wish them well, why shoehorn God into the conversation?

To me it usually feels gratuitous and subtly sanctimonious. It’s like the theist is really saying, “Look, I am so much more caring and spiritual and wise than you that I’m going to pray for you even though you are a hellbound heathen.” There’s a “look at me” quality to the sentiment which I find annoying. If you sincerely want to show sympathy, then just say that.

I feel bad for you— I’m so sorry-- is there anything I can do?-- I love you.
Unadorned statements of pure feeling are perfectly adequate without the addition of religious posturing.

having said all that, it’s not like it keeps me up at night if someone says “God bless you.”

42

Well, yes, I would hope that everyone realizes that there are multiple different beliefs out there.

But what I guess I don’t fully understand is why it would be to okay to be disrespectful of someone’s beliefs because you think they’re being disrespectful of yours. If it is wrong for Bob the Theist to not respect your beliefs, why isn’t it equally wrong for you to not respect his?

I can’t think of any way of dealing with such a situation as I described other than avoiding Bob the Theist, and I’m just curious as to how other people would deal with it (which I suppose means I’m asking this in the wrong forum, eh?). And I admit that I know some theists who are of the quite vocal persuasion who might feel that their beliefs compel them to share some religious sentiment or another.

43

g8rguy, I think that I would simply thank the person for his/her well wishes and not acknowledge any statements about God. Either they’ll get the message or they won’t. That’s what’s so insidious about unsolicited prayers or blessings. if you reject them then, well you’re a jerk because the other person was so well meaning. It’s a crock, but but just pretend you never heard the word God. show know reaction at all except to thank them for their “kind thoughts,” etc.

44

As above, context and intent mean everything in this situation. Basically I think it comes down to respect and politeness. Besides the blessings with ulterior motives mentioned above, the only way I could see a legitimate reason to take offense would be if someone had made their wishes not to be blessed known.

I have a relation by marriage that is extremely religious, and she is offended at stock phrases that our society generally accepts as harmless. “Oh my God!” “What the hell?” and even (I kid you not) “Holy cow!” upsets her. She is not my favorite person in the world, but I do my best to try and refrain from saying such things in her presence because it’s simply impolite. She doesn’t like it–> I know she doesn’t like it–> so I don’t do it.

Should an atheist have to offer prayers or blessings to a theist? I don’t think so. To me a theist NOT offering unwanted prayers/blessings is more in the same vein of an atheist NOT rebutting the prayers or challenging the beliefs of the theist who is suffering. a God-neutral expression of sympathy is not the same thing as a God-denied expression of sympathy.

45

the thing is, gr8rguy, imho respecting others’ beliefs is letting them believe what they want to and not trying to throw anything in their faces. the best analogy i can make for this is that i am a vegetarian. i dont eat meat, but i dont try to stop others from eating it. if someone offers me meat, i simply say ‘no thank you’ and try to leave it at that. for the most part, it works out well. am i disagreeing with someone else’s beliefs by not eating meat? perhaps, but by belonging to any creed you are disagreeing with someone else. the disrespect comes from not allowing other people to just eat their food. if a friend gets food poisoning from mcdonalds, i don’t say, well i hope you see now the evils of eating animal flesh, i just offer my sympathies/help. if you want to eat meat in front of me, you can. i don’t mind. but don’t try to feed me a burger, because i will refuse. especially if you know that i am a vegetarian. same thing goes for prayer.

46

Bob can decide in that case that God’s feelings on this subject are more important than mine. If he does that, he’s being rude to me, based on (in his belief) God’s commandment to be rude to me.

Whatever. People are rude to me every day. But I won’t thank Bob for his rudeness.

And Polycarp, I appreciate your sentiment, even though I asked for you not to let me know about it (and don’t think you can weasel out of it by saying, “I won’t tell you that I’m praying for your dad…” :slight_smile: ). Since you were compelled to tell me about it based on your beliefs about what’s proper, I hope you’ll understand that, based on my beliefs about what’s proper, I won’t pass word along to my agnostic father. I figure God doesn’t require the prayee to know about the prayer (assuming He exists), so it won’t matter from that angle – and from my dad’s side, I think he’d just be vaguely creeped out that his son is discussing his medical care with strangers on a message board. (For what it’s worth, though, it’s a pretty minor surgery: I brought it up here by way of example, not because I’m unusually worried).

Daniel

47

Beautifully put. I (try to) refrain from blasphemy when I’m around folks that I know are religious, even though blasphemies mild to severe are an integral part of my viocabulary and sense of humor. I don’t hold back when I’m around other folks who are irreverent, however, because it’s all about respecting each other for me. If you mind my saying, “Jesus Christ!” I’ll try not to do it around you. If you don’t mind, I’ll probably say it at some point around you.

It’s not much, and I don’t think it’s too much for me to ask religious people to (try to) tone down their reverent language when directed toward me, once they find out I’m not religious. It’s all about respecting each other.

Daniel

48

Daniel, it wasn’t so much that “I felt compelled to tell you” as it was a gentle tweaking, tailored to be “I won’t say what you asked me not to say, but…” to illuminate the point that for a believer, asking God to do something is not a futile exercise but the proper response to a situation that needs assistance, entering into the spirit of God’s Plan to facilitate a result that is meaningful in human terms.

In choosing whether to be offended by a “God bless you” or “I’ll pray for you” type of statement, those who do not believe in God (or a god or gods) might take into account that from the POV of the believer, there is meaning behind the statement. I remember the comment of one preacher that “All we can do is pray” is, or ought to be, equivalent to saying, “All we can do is drop A-bombs on enemies” – it’s intentionally that powerful!

And yes, you’re entirely right that God doesn’t require any such knowledge on the part of the prayee – such remarks are usually intended as a means of support and reassurance to the listener on the part of the believing commenter, when they’re not the supercilious form that I think we’re all in agreement is offensive.

49

g8rguy, I think your hypothetical is unsupported. I am unaware of any religious doctrine that requires an adherent to invoke God when comforting another, or to inform a person the theist is going to engage in intercessory prayer on the person’s behalf.

Do you honestly believe that a theist cannot say “I hope things get better?”

Sua

50

Yes, exactly so. But why isn’t it throwing something in Bob the Theist’s face to say “I’m not religious, so please don’t pray for me,” or (in an extreme example) to attack Bob the Theist with a box cutter, or the like? Obviously, when Bob goes on and on about how he’s praying for you despite your request to the contrary, he’s being rude and is not being respectful of your beliefs, but I don’t see why it’s not also considered rude and disrespectful of his beliefs to ask him to stop.

Just to answer my own question, by the way (and IATheist), I do what Daniel and most of the rest of you have said: I ignore it or just accept that such a person is being rude to me when they do something that they are aware I’d rather they not. It’s those people who are rude or disrespectful right back that I don’t really understand. It seems a little inconsistent to me.

(added in preview)

It’s entirely possible that my hypothetical is indeed unsupported (I debated mentioning that it might be in my first post). It’s also entirely possible that it’s not. I’m hardly an expert on any aspect of religion whatsoever. If it isn’t unsupported, of course, I think it’s worth pointing out. Even if it is complete malarkey, I, for one, do not object to thought experiments designed to make me consider my own beliefs.

No, I don’t. It’s certainly possible; I do it routinely.

But that’s not the point, is it? The point is that I’m not certain it’s not being disrespectful of others’ beliefs to tell them not to pray for you. I could be wrong; it’s happened often enough before. And maybe I’m right but it’s not important; this has also happened before. But I think it’s worth pointing out.

51

Interesting topic.

Having recently moved back to an overwhelmingly religious country, the Dominican Republic, a day won’t go by without someone mentioning God in one form or another. The most ubiquitous being "si Dios quiere’ (God willing) at the end of a plethora of sentences, e.g., “hasta mañana, si Dios quiere.”

In fact, I’m fairly sure that I’ve used it myself at one time or another. Just something you stop noticing.

OTHO, I ran into an old acquaintance and first thing she told me was that she had been “born again.” Religion had never been much of an issue between us in the past but after hearing about her conversion, I had a feeling that was about to change. Over the course of the next few weeks we saw and spoke to each a number of times and a pattern began to develop: for her every “I’ll pray for you,” I’d respond with “Great. I’ll think for you.” Which seemed fair to me, as we both got a bit of a giggle from it and I thought that the underlying assumption was one of mutual respect.

However, things came to a boil over the course of one particular poolside Sunday. We’d been talking about all kinds of things, not once coming back to the topic of religion. As I said, I’d hoped we had a mutual understanding, respected each other’s ideas and could build back our friendship from there.

But it wasn’t to be. For about two hours into our poolside conversation, in saunters a friend who just “happened” to be coming from a week long retreat with one religious order or another. And before I knew what was happening, I was being accosted by these two women in what I felt was nothing short of a trap. After recovering from the shock – I’d compare it to landing in the middle of a Twilight Zone episode – I went into serious counterattack mode, questioning their motives, sincerity, and their whole belief system. Trust me when I say it wasn’t pretty. But fortunately for all involved it only lasted for as long as their logic. Which is to say, not much. These weren’t exactly Libertarian’s or Polycarp’s clones but rather like His4Ever’s evil twins. Canned BS regurgitated at precisely the speed of sound – impressive in its own way, but scary in many others. They were simply beyond rationality.

Anyhow, to answer the OP, I have no problem with the religious well-wishers, but I have since learned that I need to dig a deeper line in the sand. A “bless you” and/or “pray for you” now and again, I can live with, anymore than that and I’ll need to borrow Sua’s box cutters.

Or maybe I’ll just buy my own.

52

I don’t see why a theist feels compelled to invoke their deity as a source of comfort upon all they encounter. They know their deity will be a source of comfort, so why not leave it at that and just wish good thoughts upon another? Many statements are made in the course of conversation that are not theistic; why must theism be unnecessarily interjected into condolences unless both parties are aware that they both hold theistic beliefs? (Yes, my opinions have changed somewhat from my former beliefs on this subject, I believe.)

Also, just to note, this topic has been discussed in the recent past.

53

I’m an atheist. I have come to the conclusion that I didn’t choose to believe this way, it just kind of happened. I really really tried to believe in God, and I tried for years. It was a matter of life and death for me.

8 years in Alcoholics Anonymous with me praying to God, then to the sun, the wind, the ocean… then it just got completely ridiculous. I’m not going to get into the whole thing, but let’s just say it was really painful and I thought I was going to end up miserable for the rest of my life if I didn’t get it. I read and read and read, and prayed and prayed and prayed, and felt more hopeless by the day.

When I finally tossed it all over the side, I got this happy feeling that I was finally free of the baggage of worrying about it all. I have more tolerance in my life now than I ever did. I still judge people, but it’s less on whether they agree with me than on other factors that I find much more important.

So when people say they’re going to pray for me, it’s a little painful. I don’t like it. Now, I’d never tell them to stuff it if they’re coming from a good place. There’s a good percentage of the time that they’re looking down their noses at me as a poor little lost sheep, but THEY’VE got the answer and so they feel sorry for me. When that attitude comes in I silently seethe. I also know just how futile it is to talk to these people about this, because I’m not going to change them. I’m not even going to jigger any politeness out of them about it. They’re going to feel bad, I’m going to feel bad, etc. S

ometimes they just look happy and secure in their faith and it makes them feel better. THAT grinds on me as well. I’m unable to achieve that kind of happiness because the IPU didn’t brand me with Her hooves. It would be nice to have that kind of security. It’s kind of like seeing somebody drive by in a Mercedes that their parents bought for them. I’m jealous, I guess. I don’t have much of a roadmap for the same kind of eternal happiness without a God to rely on for fulfillment. This has been a rather recent development although a long time in coming, so I’m going to have to find something other than escapism to find fulfillment in. I’ve been working on some things that I’m finding a good deal of satisfaction in but it’s not much of a replacement for eternal bliss, you know?

So I just leave it alone. If they’re just being polite and don’t know me, I don’t sweat it much. Maybe with some time my wounds over religion will heal and I won’t take it so personally anymore.

It would be nice if religious people just confined themselves to blessing those who go to church with them, though. I doubt that would occur to them, but whatever, you know? It just seems like religious people are completely unable to keep their good news to themselves. It’s annoying.

I smoke cigarettes. When I’m around other people I don’t ask if they mind if I smoke. I just don’t smoke around them until I find out whether or not they smoke. I belong to a group that allows smoking inside the building. I choose not to smoke in that building most of the time because I know that most of them don’t smoke and don’t like the smell. I step outside. Every once in a while they let me know it’s OK to smoke inside, but I know that there are a few there who really get bothered by the smoke. I don’t assert my right to smoke there, which I could, and I don’t take the position that the people who get bothered by it are just babies or whatever. I just go outside for a smoke. I enjoy my smoke. Nobody gets bothered. Why can’t religious people just respect that some people don’t like to hear about it?

I read these threads about the debate mostly to read what the other atheists are writing in order to find a little fellowship on that point.

54

I think the meaning and emotion behind the sentiments is all that should be considered. If someone means well for you, the form that takes (within reason: crazy people who think they should save you by killing you are not included.) is beside the point and it’s wrong to obsess over it one way or another.

55

Originally posted by Apos

But it certainly was pretty odd to have someone’s death be an opportunity for pushing one particular opinion about metaphysics (let alone a secretarian one), especially at the funeral of a person who was open to just about anything.

All funerals I have attended do this. They will say some things about the deceased at first then go into a sermon on salvation. According to the Preachers there is no need to preach anything for the deceased person for they have already met their dues.

Quote
So it got me wondering about if and how people of very different beliefs can gather together to deal with something like death that doesn’t presume some set of beliefs over another

It’s called respect for the deceased and for the family. I’ve been to many funerals that have mixed beliefs with no difficulty arising. I guess it would be like the teaching of Thumpers’ Mom – If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all.

This is one thing that always bothered me, and it still does when I think of this individual. This person had always said he didn’t believe in God. On one excursion to the hospital he was very sick he started praying to God to help him. We asked him if he really believed in God and he said yes. Do many atheist change their mind when confronted by death? BTW he didn’t die until about 2 years later but we never heard him say he didn’t believe in God again either.

56

If I am going to pray for someone, I will generally do it, but will probably not ever tell them I am doing so if they do not believe as I do. Usually, I will tell the person I am sorry for their pain and that I will be thinking about them. For those that know me well, they realize that if I am thinking about them, I will necessarily be praying for them, because that is my personal habit. I don’t expect atheists to acknowledge my God, and I don’t think it is beneficial for me to highlight the differences between their beliefs and mine, particularly when they are hurting. This is not in any way a condemnation of what Libertarian said, just a difference in personalities.

For the other part of the question, as a Christian, I would prefer for people not to offer me Allah’s blessings, or the peace of the goddess, or whatever. When people have said such things to me in the past it made me uncomfortable. Part of me wanted to tell them “no thanks,” and part of me wanted to keep quiet. I chose the latter course in the few such times that I remember, but it made me feel awkward. To say nothing seems disloyal to God, but to say something seems disrespectful to the person showing genuine concern. I would prefer not to have the internal conflict, especially in times of distress.

I am always frightened when people try to tell me what God’s plan is for my life or anyone else’s, particularly when they don’t know me well. I don’t think comments regarding God’s will are ever appropriate at a funeral. It is funny how many stupid things people say when there is really nothing to say. At a funeral of a close relative, I had a preacher actually tell me that he didn’t think God had meant for my relative to die. Pretty much the opposite of what you were told, but I thought it was a horrible statement of theology, and was not at all comforting.

Having been through more funerals than I would wish, I have come to the conclusion that a person’s presence says it all, and those closest usually have the fewest words because they know better. Sometimes, words just aren’t necessary and aren’t useful. Of course, in a message board situation, I think an acknowledgement of someone’s loss or pain is appropriate, whether it is a death, loss of a job or whatever.

57

Just out of curiosity, how would it be disloyal to God to accept a Blessing from Allah? Are you aware that Allah is, in fact, the same God that Jews and Christians worship?

58

I must confess that I have a hard time finding any rudeness in one human being honestly expressing a concern for another.

I thank people who pray for me. I thank people who wish me blessings. I thank people who send me positive thoughts. I do not do so because I think the declared actions will have any material effect on my life. I don’t do so out of some sense that I am avoiding a conflict or sparing the feelings of some well-wishing but misguided boor. I do so because a human being is trying to help me during a time when I seem to need help, and that is something to be thankful for.

I am often at a loss for exactly what words might help someone else cope with grief or hardship or pain. I hope, though, that if I make an honest attempt to express compassion the recepient will see beyond the clumsiness of my words and react to the emotions behind them.

59

—It’s called respect for the deceased and for the family. I’ve been to many funerals that have mixed beliefs with no difficulty arising.—

Well, the message here seems to be “if you atheists would just shut up, there wouldn’t be any problem” which I think misses my point. I’m happy to shut up, and I’m happy to agree that the wake and funeral were planned by her parents, and are up to them.
My point is simply that I’d still LIKE it if there were or could be ceremonies and personal blessings that spoke to everyone, or allowed everyone to speak. It’s a hard thing to envision, but important I think. Traditions and behavior during death and tragedy ARE very cultural and belief specific: but our society is often far more pluralistic today than when they first became tradition. What do we do now?

My friends and I later on held a memorial service for her that was essentially just that: a huge circle of people just talking, or playing music (my own contribution was music). Some people who were religious spoke about her and her death in the context of their religion, or their religion in the context of oher: but they weren’t preaching, just explaining themselves. Some people who were religious didn’t mention anything religious. Everyone was just speaking their minds. We invited her parents, and they came and seemed appreciative to listen.

I dunno if that’s a good solution or not. You certainly can’t conprimise on everything at once: some people want ceremony, and its hard to get a ritualistic ceremony that speaks to everyone.

The same problem holds in blessings. Some people just want to have a ritualistic phrase to say to people in times of tragedy (a practice that seems to have it’s roots in magical thinking: special ritual words to ward off evil). It’s important to them. But whether it’s important to others to hear… that’s less clear. I can appreciate a theists drive to make plain their religious beliefs in times of troubles, for whatever reason. But I can also appreciate how non-believers could quite rightly feel a little suspicious about the motives of someone who does it. My “vote out Bush” example is what I mean, just on a smaller scale.

60

Sua wrote:

You’re mistaken. Look again. :wink:

“So I want to broaden that discussion and inquire in what circumstances, if any, a theist may wish blessings upon an atheist. And I wonder whether especially the hard atheists apply the ethic both ways: in other words, if the theist is to be silent about his God in consideration for the atheist, is the atheist to specifically mention the theist’s God in consideration for him? Are both parties bound by the rules of being sympathetic?”

I disagree. “Your God” implies a respect for the person who holds the belief. You’re not saying “my God” but “your God”.

At Christmas, we sent a card to an atheist board member based on the responses from the IMHO thread I mentioned in the OP. We received a response from her thanking us, and wishing upon us God’s blessings. We were as far removed from annoyed as the east is from the west.

Job? I don’t feel like it’s my “job” to offer people comfort or support. It isn’t for consoling me — it’s for consoling them.

Well, that seems 180 from what you said before. If you don’t believe in keeping kosher, it seems that you would presume such business to be annoying and patronizing to the Jew.

I don’t think that’s appropriate for Great Debates. It’s a gratuitous vulgarism.

His expressed wishes were that people refrain from telling him that God planned his agony. What I did, mindful of that, was to offer myself as an ear and a shoulder, and wish upon him God’s comfort for his agony.

And in fact, when he saw my post, he responded with an expression of deep and sincere gratitude, saying in part, “Lib, that was so sweet I nearly wept. I wasn’t offended in the least by your last statement. Thank you so much for your kindness, your offer is very touching.”

So, why the heck can’t you. :wink: