Goddamn Language Nazis

Enough is Enough.

It started in a thread in Great Debates. Rudy from “Survivor” was being considered a bigot because he used the word “queer.” I argued that he was not in fact a bigot. He was both friendly with and admired by Richard who is Gay. As a 70 year old guy, “Queer” is the term he is familiar with to describe a homosexual man. The fact that he has not kept up with current nomenclature does not make him a bigot. In fact he is a retired Navy Seal and a legitimate war hero. I did not like seeing him attacked over a peccadillo.

The argument got pretty esoteric and a little mean (on both sides.) When it was finished I had agreed that while “Queer” had some acceptable uses, it has a lot of derogatory content and a reasonable and polite person would eiter be very careful with its use or refrain from using it entirely.

It did not end there.

It seemed to me that because of my stance in that thread I was on some kind of unspoken probation with some (clearly not all) of our Gay posters. My responses in threads were met with a certain degree of coldness and a subtext of hostility.

Then came this “Gay Lifestyle” thread in the pit. Apparently this phrase is patronizing and demeaning as well.
I argued that the phrase is innocuous, and if you object to it, you might be looking for trouble where there is none. I found the tone of the OP to be whiny and self serving.
I referred to another thread in MPSIMS where the term “Gay Lifestyle” was being used in reference to a special on Fire Island showing on Bravo. Though I haven’t seen it, apparently this is not meant in a derogatory fashion either.

I referred to “language Nazis” and was Derided by Mattmcl for using the term “Nazi,” in this fashion. I’m not allowed to say that either.

When I told him that I didn’t care what he thought if he choose to deliberately misinterpret my words, I was informed that I was no longer entitled to “the benefit of the doubt,” whatever that means. I told him he could basically take his benefit of the doubt and stick it.

That pretty much brings us up to date.

Now without mincing words:

I am not a bigot. I don’t care about your sexual preference, your sex, your culture, or the color of your skin. I do not think that any of these things are grounds for discrimination against someone, and I don’t think any of these traits make one person better than any other.

I am getting rather upset at what’s happening here. It is clear to me that Mattmcl was not actually offended that I used the term “Nazi.” He didn’t object to my “Evil Nazi Groundhog” thread. What he actually objected to was me!

By invoking “Nazi” as a term not used by right-thinking people he was labelling me a bigot. He was doing this becuase he was pissied that some of my responses concerning language went against the gay consensus on this board.

This is McCarthy witch hunt mentality. If you use the wrong words then you are a bigot. Only certain people know what the right words are though, and they don’t always tell, and sometimes they change.

I respect the dignity of gay people, and I sincerely don’t want to offend a friend by using a term that will cause him hurt.

What’s going on here is wrong though.

If only Gay people get to decide what to call themselves (and of course they are immune and can use the words themselves because they are gay,) and if the words change, then this means that someone who is gay gets to decide De Facto who is a bigot.

This is what Mattmcl was doing when he objected to my use of “Nazi.”

I see this attempt to edit and censor as dangerous and unreasonable.

Many terms have multiple meanings. Some are derogatory. Some are not. One needs to derive meaning from context. It has always been this way. It is basic and simple and everybody does it all the time.

So, going forward:

I will use what terms I see as reasonable and fit based on my judgement and experience, and will not deliberately seek to offend by my usage.

I will extend to others the belief that they are decent and thoughtful human being until they prove otherwise.

If you choose to deliberately and maliciously misconstrue my words in order to generate a faux indignance, you will receive a hearty “Fuck You!”

If I know and respect you, I will go out of my way not to offend you even to the point of changing my vocabularly. If you are a good friend, than you are worth the effort.

If you choose to attack me or others based on a deliberate misconstrual or seek to alter my speech habits without invitation, than you will receive a hearty “Fuck You!”

My speech is a part of who I am, and I choose what I say with reasonable tact and discretion. I am no more required to alter it to satisfy you than you are required to change the color of your skin or your sexual preference to satisfy another.

If you don’t like it, then a very hearty “Fuck You.”

Mattmcl: Take your pissy little semantic bullshit and shove it up your ass.

Do we have to have another thread on this?

These two do not always sit comfortably together. If other people have what you consider to be unreasonable expectations for tact and discretion (which seems to be the case with this ground-hog hill) then you’re going to be breaking one or the other. This can be trying for you and for others. [patronising bastard hat off]

picmr

In the other thread Mattmcl said:

“This seems to be based around your own definition of “reasonable-minded”. Many gay people on this board have told you many times that we do not like to be told we have a lifestyle, nor do we appreciate having you call us queer or faggots, whether we call ourselves this.”

I do not use those terms. I object and am offended by the presumption that you would attempt to tell me what I can and cannot say.

You presume that I am willing to go out of my way to cater to your wishes. That presumption is dangerously close to a demand.

I don’t tell you how to live your life, what to do, or what to say. Do not presume to tell me. I will decide what to say, and I will decide how and with what words I say it. If I find you nice and reasonable, than I will generally go along, I may go along even if you are an asshole.

But,

It is for me to decide. You don’t get to tell me what to say, and you don’t get to interpret what I say by your own special rules.

It is the attitude and the presumption that I am pissed at.

Amen, Brother! Testify!

The PC shit is getting real old. I don’t want to walk on eggshells because I’m afraid I might piss off someone who may be a little hypersensitive and overreact to what they think I might have said.

I’ve always loved the one where African Americans refer to each other as niggers… Not saying it is right for me to dream of saying it (not that I would ever even want to), but it still makes me chuckle inside… so yes, PC-ness is usually bullshit, especially if the people in question have no malicious intent. There are so many words out there to describe so many different people, someone is bound to get offended…

Scylla, this site lists all the words that you might piss people off by using. Avoid them all.

Just trying to keep you out of trouble, because I like you and all.

Yes, how awful it is that there are people still alive today with vivid memories of having lived through the Holocaust, or who are sensitive to such matters, who are preventing you from trivializing the concept of Nazis in order to increase the semantic impact of your puerile rants. Poor, poor pitiful you.

You see this? —> . <---- It’s the world’s smallest violin, and it’s playing just for you.

pldenisson:

I guess you never saw the “Soup Nazi,” Seinfeld episode either.

Did you object to the Evil Nazi Groundhog thread?

My point sir, is that if somebody is SEEKING offense, they will doubtless find it.

  1. I did see it. FWIW, I hated Seinfeld anyway, so it was no more stupid than any other episode.

  2. Never saw it.

  3. And my point, sir, is that some concepts deserve not to be trivialized to the point of banality, and Nazis are one of them. Its use in the manner that you use it here and elsewhere indicates a complete lack of perspective or proportionality. After all, you must be aware on some level that the word means something, or you would choose some other word. Apparently, to you, it means something funny or banal.

Scylla,

Damn good rebellion against the United States of the Offended mentality!

I saw it. I thought the episode was funny, but the term wasn’t.

Al Yeganeh, the person who the “soup Nazi” character was based on didn’t think it funny either and (I believe) successfully sued NBC.

Some things you shouldn’t reduce to a joke.

Fenris

Just a quick little opinion.

Just drop all the PC bullshit. Why should anyone have to worry about what they say. Just because some pussy motherfucker got offended by a saying it’s now wrong? bull shit. Grow a fucking backbone and deal with it. There just words. So what if sometimes it brings back a bad memory. It’s in the past. If you live through it, it makes you that much stronger. Granted in some cases(i.e…Nazi) it’s going to be a strong feeling. Did you live through it? Are you not stronger because of it? My whole point is society is trying to make us be careful of what we say and do. I think it is total bullshit.

Scylla has a right to say, joke about, or reference anything he wants. Just the same as we have the right to bitch at each other about what is right or what we don’t like. IMHO

I was going to respond to DarkHeart’s post point-by-point, until I realized he didn’t make any points. People like him are just looking for excuses to be jackasses, and want everyone else to justify their behavior for them. (Aside: It’s really easy to tell someone else to “get over” something you didn’t experience.)

Hey, you can either be the kind of person who walks around with his mouth on fast forward and his brain on rewind, saying whatever idiotic, offensive crap happens to bubble to the top of his tiny brain; or you can be the kind of person who at least makes a cursory effort to be polite and respectful to other people. You decide, but don’t expect people to cheer you for choosing the former.

My point dip shit is stop with all the pc bullshit.

Ooh, so nice to see that I’m a Language Nazi all of a sudden because I tell people I’m offended by something.

An important point seems to have escaped you, Scylla. I don’t have either the power or the desire to censor you or force you to shut up. I have written letters supporting bigots’ right to burn flags and call me faggot. They can do so if they like.

However, if you say something offensive, for example using an insulting term or trivializing a horrific event like the Holocaust, by the same freedom of speech that you have I will tell you that I think it’s offensive.

If you continue to intentionally use that expression, I will therefore presume that, since you are aware of its meaning and its impact on me, that you are doing it to insult and offend. I will then react accordingly. It is disingenuous of you to go claiming that you don’t know what I’m so upset about.

I shouldn’t have to be explaining the process of civil discourse and ordinary sensitivity to other people’s feelings and beliefs.

You can call me a Nazi and a queer or whatever all you like until the cows come home, honey. I can’t and don’t want to make you shut up. But by using those expressions with full knowledge of their impact, you are revealing something unpleasant about your character.

Having given you the benefit of the doubt that you are an intelligent, sensitive person who wishes to engage in civil discourse, I have had it proven to me in no uncertain terms that you are not. Your credibility and value as a debate partner has suffered, in my eyes, accordingly.

It’s your right to destroy other people’s good opinions of you. Be it upon your head.

pldennison:

I meant nothing by the “Sir.” I know it didn’t come out this way, so sorry.

Hyperbole is a tricky thing, and what is appropriate is your personal preference, and taste.

Just as you do not like Seinfeld, you may feel that Nazis should not be trivialized by hyperbole as a matter of preference and taste.

My tastes and preferences may differ. Their is certainly enough precedent for Nazi hyperbolization that a reasonable person should not be offended by it. Perhaps you beleive my post would have been of higher quality had I refrained from doing so.

That’s you opinion, and you are most welcome to share it. However, if I disagree and continue to use the technique that doesn’t make me a bigot, or a bad person. We simply disagree.

If you’ll look at the context of Mattmcl’s objection I think it’s pretty clear that he was objecting to my usage to generate a false indignance and treat me like a bigot. I think that this is wrong and unwarranted.

I see you’ve already decided, DarkHeart. May your own level of courtesy be returned to you a thousandfold.

Matt:

"However, if you say something offensive, for example using an insulting term or trivializing a horrific event like the Holocaust, by the same freedom of speech that you have I will tell you that I think it’s offensive.

If you continue to intentionally use that expression, I will therefore presume that, since you are aware of its meaning and its impact on me, that you are doing it to insult and offend. I will then react accordingly. It is disingenuous of you to go claiming that you don’t know what I’m so upset about. "

It doesn’t necessarily work that way. I may decide that your indignation is feigned and unreasonable, and hence unworthy of compliance. I may also decide that you presume a lot by telling me how to engage in discourse, and may resent the presumption, and therefore decide not to comply.

In short, I may think that you are being rude by your presumptive attitude, and decide that you are not worth the effort at courtesy because of your rudeness.

Well, if you don’t mind offending me and making me and other people who agree with me assume that you’re an ignorant schmendrick, that’s certainly your right to continue on just as you are doing.

There is a right to free speech, no one wants to deny anyone that.

But I think the “PC bullshit” is there for a reason. If you WANT to insult someone, go ahead. But I don’t, so I don’t call black people niggers, or gay people faggots, or anything else that night offend them.

It’s called politeness, people. And consideration and empathy. I’m behind you all the way, Matt_Mcl.