Good fences make good neighbours, but how do you make the fence?

In My Humble Opinion
1

Hello, and welcome to my first thread. I’d like advice on handling a homeowner situation from people who have experience and insight.

I’ve whined about my neighbours here before. Since I bought my fixer-upper ten years ago they’ve made it clear that they resent my refusal to grant them unlimited access to my backyard. While their children have outgrown having screaming contests in my yard and the grandfather has finally accepted that my choice of wildflowers over grass means he no longer has a third lawn to mow, the ongoing issue is the blackberry bush that runs along their side of our shared backyard fence.

I’ve been ordered not to trim the branches that grow onto my side or to pick the berries on them, and though I’ve asked them not to they come into my yard when they think I’m not home to pick “their” berries, often trampling my plants in the process. I know how ridiculous this is but a lock on the gate merely means they climb over. At the beginning of the growing season they train the branches into their own yard but the damn thing grows so fast that you can practically see it happening and after a while they just stop bothering. After spending my first year here fruitlessly trying to make them stop I decided to minimize my aggravation and let it go (apart from the times when I’d slip out the back door like a ninja to “read a book” and watch them scurry away with their heads down – hee!).

I’ve finally squirreled away enough money to think about getting a new fence to replace the rusted eyesore that separates us. When my suburban parents replaced their wooden fence they got a reasonable quote and approached their neighbours to see if they’d split the cost, which they were happy to do since the mutual fence was not long for this world. My preference is a wrought-iron fence with a (locking) gate; my second choice is a “slotted” wooden fence that would let some sunlight penetrate to their side for their bushes. (The spiteful child in me wants to get the tallest solid wooden fence that I could legally construct to offer me some long overdue privacy but won’t for the sake of harmony … and inevitable future retribution.)

My question is, how do I go about this? What if I ask the neighbours to split the cost and they say, “Not only will we not help pay for a new fence, but we refuse to let you put up a new fence?” After all, these are the same nitwits who told me I couldn’t dig up my lawn or plant flowers and objected vigorously to my composter. Can I just say, “Too bad, I’m buying one!” and put it up on my property line? I haven’t explored my legal options yet because property law obviously means very little to these people, but any real-world experience/anecdotes my fellow Dopers can offer would be greatly appreciated.

2

Check out the local ordinances on how high fences can be built and where, and then put your own fence within your property lines and make it any kind of fence you want. Your neighbours have made it clear they aren’t reasonable, and I wouldn’t even bother telling them about it - it would be a fait accompli and I would cordially invite them to never darken my yard again (well, by my actions of putting up a big, locked fence).

3

I think it was your thread, or some other thread where you asked about this.

LOOK UP YOUR STATE LAWS.

Minnesota, for example (where I live) has some fine laws that require splitting the cost of a boundary fence even if only one of the parties wants it (and NO, they don’t get the right to refuse to allow it if they don’t want it). It the other party fails to pay their half, you call out the Fence Judge and they then require the other party to pay the entire tab as punishment for being dicks and refusing to pay their half.

4

I’m in Ontario Canada and am relatively confident that I can legally put up a fence on my side of the property; I’m looking into it. I’m more concerned with how to go about this without setting off a shitstorm. While I love Cat Whisperer’s suggestion I’m hoping to find a solution that leaves me not only with clean hands legally, but doesn’t appear deliberately inflammatory. I have no plans to move and I want to come off saintly in the event that my new wooden fence mysteriously burns down and I need to press vandalism charges. (That’s a worst case scenario but as I’ve said, these people are unreasonable.)

5

Why don’t you trim the branches on your side? No fruit = no reason to chime into your yard.

6

^This. I’m pretty sure that if their plants extend over your property line, you’re legally entitled to trim them back, no matter how they feel about it.

7

When I’m caught in the act, I get screamed at. When I’m not caught, shortly after the trimming my backyard – accessible only by my back door and “their” laneway between our two houses – suddenly experiences mysterious acts of petty vandalism (dog shit, uprooted plants etc.).

8

http://www.mah.gov.on.ca/Asset1232.aspx

First thing that came up when googling “Ontario Fence Laws”

Let’s assume that the owner who needs the new fence wants to construct it on the property boundary in place of the current line fence, which is in good condition. When the adjoining owner refuses to agree to share the cost of the replacement fence, that owner applies to the municipality for a viewing.

Upon further reading, for the most part it appears that you only get a viewing when someone wants to dispute the boundary. Further down they discuss the fifty/fifty rule (similar to ours) that requires both parties to share the costs (Page 25).

“Fence-viewers are sometimes called out to deal with a situation where, for many years, two adjoining owners (A and B) have each accepted responsibility for half of their common line fence. The fence now needs to be reconstructed, but only Owner A has done the necessary work to his or her half; Owner B has done
nothing to the other half. As a result, Owner A has applied to the municipality for a viewing. In this event, the fence-viewers are dealing with only half of the line fence, as they have no jurisdiction to deal with the half that has already been reconstructed by Owner A. In such a situation, it might be appropriate for the fence-viewers to vary from the fifty/fifty rule by making Owner B, the defaulting
owner, responsible for the entire portion of the fence that needs to be reconstructed. The result of such an award is that both Owner A and Owner B would be made responsible for half of the total line fence between their properties.”

However;

One owner wants to replace an adequate line fence: This is a variant of the first example and reflects the fact that the use of lands is not static. A farmer who plans to convert to a different type of livestock operation needs a more specialized type of fencing and therefore wants to replace the existing line fence. Similarly, an urban resident who plans to install a back yard swimming pool
needs a fence that complies with the municipality’s bylaw requirements and therefore also wants to replace the existing line fence. The adjoining owners in both situations have refused to share the cost of replacing the existing fences because both of these fences are suitable to their needs and are in
good repair. As a result, the owners who need new fences have each applied to the municipality for a viewing. In this situation, it might be appropriate for fence-viewers to vary from the fifty/fifty rule by making an owner who wants to replace an adequate existing fence responsible for most or even all of the costs of doing so.

And;

One owner is being a nuisance: Owners who are not on good terms with an adjoining owner will occasionally use the Act as a means of getting at that neighbour. In one case, an owner asked the fence-viewers to require a fence to be constructed on a property boundary that ran through a private woodlot, even though neither owner wanted a line fence in that location. In another case, an owner asked the fence-viewers to require a fence to be constructed on a property boundary, despite the fact that the adjoining owner had recently constructed a fence just inside that boundary line. In such cases, it would seem appropriate for fence-viewers to vary from the fifty/fifty rule by specifying
that, if the owner who is being a nuisance insists on such a fence, that owner will be responsible for the entire costs of constructing one. Although the Act does not authorize fence-viewers to refuse to require a fence, an award of this type will often cause the owner who is being a nuisance to let the matter drop.

So read this over and decide what you need to do here.

9

Excellent information/advice, Chimera; thanks.

I know I’m legally entitled to trim the branches that hang into my yard, just as I’m sure that my neighbours know that coming into my yard when expressly being told not to is trespassing. Has anyone here ever tried to get the police involved in a dispute such as this? (The mere thought of filing a police report over this frankly makes me cringe.) I’d love some real world feedback. And does anyone here have experience with fence-building under circumstances such as these?

10

It sounds to me like you’re not going to solve this without the help of the law. If you want some more ammunition before you take that step, though, you might try installing a camera viewing your yard, then go ahead and trim the bush back.

11

I’m on that, Chronos. After the last incident I started shopping for 4-camera monitoring systems and they’ll definitely be in place before I make my next move. I wish I’d done it years ago.

12

If it were me, I would pay all the costs myself. I would not want them to feel they had any input in the fence, nor any rights to it. (I did not read Chimera’s post about what your local laws are.) This philosophy has served me well in fencing in my back and side yards years ago when I had objectionable neighbors. At first they were shocked by me slighting them when they saw the fence go up, but then I never had to deal with it again because I never had to see them from over here again.

I now have lovely new neighbors, and they have even offered to help pay to rebuild parts of it.

13

I think that ship set sail a long, long time ago - as I said earlier, these are not reasonable people. I don’t think you can do the right thing with them - they’ll get mad if you put up a fence without them, and they’ll get mad if you ask them about a fence. I think in that case you just have to do what’s best for you.

In addition to the cameras, I’d put motion sensor lights in the yard so you always know when they’re in there - possibly motion sensor activated sprinklers, too. :slight_smile:

ETA: Forgot my disclaimer - I’m a very territorial person, and I wouldn’t have put up with one-tenth of what you have already.

14

This is purely from (bad) neighbor experience, not legal.

  1. Check out the law on this to make sure they can’t dispute the property line.
  2. Don’t EVEN ask them to share the cost. lol (Unless it’s actually a law in your area.)
  3. Put up a solid fence so no branches can grow through. If stuff grows over it, cut it off.
    The sensor light and cameras are a great idea.

When we first moved here (Florida) our neighbor cut the blanket of Jasmine on her side and flipped it over our fence, which landed in the pool, on the day the signed we papers and moved in. Instead of unpacking necessities we were out in the hot sun in 104 degree heat (and believe me, we weren’t used to it yet) dredging out plants and leaves etc. until dark. Years later a board fell (we didn’t realize it, it was behind a bushy palm tree and stuff) and she called the City, who sent a Code Enforcer out to have us fix the fence. Needless to say, we waited until the last day allowed to repair it—just because.
At one point when she deigned to speak to me out front one day she mentioned that she was really pissed off that we never invited her over to swim. She said the previous owner had given her permission to come over whenever she wanted to. Hell, he was probably scared of her. lol

15

Live in Ontario, and once had a similar issue with a neighbour. It resolved itself, but, before it did, I was looking to do exactly what you are. Here’s some things I learned.

They don’t have to pay any more than 1/2 what a cheap chainlink fence would cost, no matter what you put up or prefer. Unless they are contributing to the cost, they have no say in style of fence etc, beyond what the city code requires.

It doesn’t sound like they’ll contribute anything, and only conflict will ensue. Were I you, I wouldn’t bother.

Here’s what I was very surprised to learn, from a contractor friend with many years experience. If you leave the existing fence, where it is, it is the fence. Anything you build will not be considered a fence, as the fence is still right there. What you are building is a privacy structure. Which, by the way, has many less restrictions, on height, materials, etc, than a ‘fence’.

Slick, huh? Turns out, you can leave them their fence, in it’s existing location, thereby preemptively removing anything they can lodge a complaint about. Should they actually send an inspector out (highly unlikely!), simply list your complaints, their transgressions, that they are difficult to deal with, your wish to avoid an all out neighbour war, and that you’re just putting up a privacy shelter to end the conflict. They’ll likely shake your hand, tell you to have a good day, and tell your neighbours to pound salt.

I remember your other thread about the screaming children and the climbing over the locked gate. That’s pretty egregious, you’ve been quite patient to my mind.

Also, you can cut anything that hangs over/comes through your fence, fruit tree, branch, bush. Not only are you allowed to, it’s your responsibility. If a branch from your neighbours tree hangs precariously over your garage, falls in a storm, it will be on you, for not having trimmed it.

Good Luck and let us know how it works out.

16

Children climbing over a locked gate? Hmm, I think you’ll have to go with metal, then, so it can be properly electrified. :slight_smile:

17

I was thinking concertina wire at the top, personally. :wink:

18

Also an excellent choice. :slight_smile:

19

I second (or third?) the suggestion that you just build whatever fence you want inside your property line and leave the current fence in place. There isn’t going to be any pleasing these people, so you might as well make yourself happy.

20

In the US, I believe this is true; perhaps not, in Canada.

I think the OP should double-check all local and provincial zoning rules, then do something that will please him (her?), on his own side of the property line, and make sure it’s lockable.

And set up motion-activated cameras front and back to provide evidence in case things get damaged.