And another Christian gets a “gimme”. You know, if you guys would clean house once in a while and kick a few of the more notorious members out, in public, and say,“They are not with us, they do not speak for us, we do not listen to or follow them, and frankly we wish them to go away forever.”, we wouldn’t have to take Christian sincerity with such a large grain of salt.
Forgive yourself first and make what reparations you can. Don’t mistake your sins for his, because forgiving others isn’t a shortcut to grace.
Slythe: Ever hear the phrase, “Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors”? Forgiveness of others does help us gain forgiveness for ourselves.
And FYI, my church regularly excommunicates those who unrepentedly and willfully preach false doctrine, or who commit adultery or act so contrarily to its doctrine that excommunication is deemed necessary.
Yes, but do you have religious leaders that will proclaim in public,“These dodoes are using religion to further their own agenda. We don’t like this, and when we talk about the Judeo-Christian majority, we are not talking about these walking enbarassments.”
No, your group will have it’s excommunications and then become stone silent on the subject, which doesn’t even slow down the dodoes at all.
The vast majority of religions,
denominations, sects, churches, and/or individuals do say “We are right and they are wrong…especially that one!” either explicitly or implicitly.
Always have, always will.
They give a lot of lip service to the idea of forgiveness, because (dang it!) Jesus said we orta. Few of them mean it. You can tell.
“Getting religion will make a man good…if he was a good man to begin with.”
–Mark Twain
That may be true, but when it comes down to which religion is the dominant one, they don’t say,“There are (x) million Christians because we are only counting those of our faith, the true believers.” No, they stand up and say,“We are 100(x) million strong in the Judeo-Christian faith!”
They do not dare denounce anyone who claims to be Christian, in fear that people might walk away from Christianity itself.
I guess that’s why I prefer science over religion. Science loves to expose frauds in public, because they realize that it actually strengthens the group as a whole.
Oh, and Snarkberry, to say that you could have said,“You gotta love a guy who can play the piano so well…” is canard along the lines of A.A. saying that their “higher power” doesn’t have to be God. It was clear from your posting that your admiration stemmed from his claiming to be religious. Fellow piano players will not generally tolerate the rudeness, dishonesty, and insincerity that fellow Christians will put up with.
Ironically, Slythe, Adam is one “Christian” who would claim that the number of Christians was fewer than the numbers that you find in the World Almanac©.
Gee! Does he get bonus points for that? < eg >
Tom~
Yes, that one’s a hoot. I remember having the very sincere leader of the group tell us that “it can be anything! One guy said his higher power was his motorcycle!” I can just see this guy saying, “Oh motorcycle, I am powerless to control my drinking, I put myself into your hands, please help me stop drinking…” Who can do that with a straight face? These people are alcoholics, not morons, and AA should realize that and stop trying to hide the theist bent.
Jodi’s headcount of Christians would be pretty darn low too, I think. 
“Eppur, si muove!” - Galileo Galilei
God: You’re right, it was a generalization. I mistakenly assumed that people would know who I was talking to. Obviously, not everyone was ungracious, and just as obviously, I need to work on the difference between the spoken word and the written one. Sorry.
Snarkberry: No, I was not talking to you. You respected Adam’s right to his beliefs, even as he disagreed with you. You were nicer to him on occasion than he was to you. It was nice of you to cut him some slack.
Slythe: Actually what Adam said was the equivalent of, “God told me not to write to you anymore, but if you respond to this last letter, I’ll be interested in what you have to say.” I understand that you disagree with everything that smacks of religion. I don’t understand the hostility and the intention of seeing everything religious in the worst light possible. Mostly, that other post was directed to people like you and Kellibelli, who seem to tolerate only those who agree with you, and get downright hostile with anyone who holds an opinion you don’t approve of.
Okay, I was going to stay out of this, but…
thirdwarning: Slythe does not only tolerate those he agrees with on religion. I’d venture to guess that I would get along with slythe fairly well, and I’m a Christian. (Although, according to Adam, I’m not, but that’s a whole 'nother issue.) IMO, (and slythe, forgive me if I misspeak) slythe and kelli are against being SO religious that you take it to an extreme that is not necessary or required.
Adam fit that description. I applaud Snark for being able to forgive Adam at all. I can’t say I can be as charitable, even as a fellow Christian.
And as an aside, you know, if we ever get REALLY bored with no ARG around, I could re-register. My initials are ARG, after all… (But NO, I’m not Adam! ;))
I’m having computer problems, so this will have to be short. Slythe, I apologized to Adam. Period. I don’t want to argue about it any more. That’ll have to do for a reply, because my computer keeps disconnecting from the internet.
Thank you Falcon, you managed to sum up in a sentence what my big rant couldnt.
On the “higher power” digression, it’s true that there are strong theist tendencies in Alcoholics Anonymous and similar programs. But there do exist some programs which follow the same general outline, but which are specifically intended to avoid that pitfall.
I attended a talk on this subject once, and I like the way the speaker described the difference. In her words, as closely as I can remember them: “If you’re an alcoholic, then the bottle has power over you. In A.A., you learn to take the power out of the bottle, and give it to the ghost in the sky. Our program is designed to teach that you have the power, and you make your own choices.”
If anybody wants to continue discussing this, we should start another thread for it.
Of course I don’t fit in; I’m part of a better puzzle.
You’re welcome kelli - I like your posts, so I figured I’d try and help out. 
AuraSeer, only one other comment as regards that, then you’re right, it does deserve its own thread: Criminal defendants and convicts are often told to join A.A. as a condition of either reduced sentence or parole, without being given a nontheist alternative program. So it’s either join the theist program or no parole, which seems to be an egregious First Amendment violation.
Phil, I agree with the thrust of your comment.
How many non-theist 11-step programs are out there? Where do the courts find out about them? Are they actively making themselves known (to the courts or to defense attorneys)?
A judge who insisted that a convicted DUI driver attend AA when a non-theist group was proposed as an alternative should be challenged on appeal. I suspect that few judges are even aware of the possibilty.
Tom~
When Pat Robertson were running for president,if he had won;I’d have left the country!(i’d have gone to canada).Famous preachers just strike me as …pretentious?Is that the word I’, looking for? Once they become pres.,suddenly nailpolish is against the law! I kid,but probably little.I DO miss arg(no I’m not technically an adamgroupie),I’ll never sleep with him(because we’re not married),but I can see why you all feel that way about him(i love you too snark) :)You know he’ll keep reading this as long as we keep posting? 
Thirdwarning, throughout all of recorded history, the hostility was on behalf of the most religious. My “intolerance” of organized religion is an attempt to live in a society that respects that some don’t believe in whatever god is prevelant at the time. I would like to see science taught in a science class. I would like to see different religions taught in a religion class. I would like to see political decisions made based on what is best for all, not just those who pray to the right diety.
Most of all, when someone comes up to me and says,“I love you. Believe in my god or go to Hell!”, and then calls me a baby-killer when I visit a friend who works at a Planned Parenthood clinic, I want that person arrested for harassment, not viewed as a “Brave Counceller” by those in charge.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: Christians have bastardized the word “Love” until all it means is,“You will be hounded until you BELIEVE!”
Maybe I was a little rough there, maybe not.
All I know is, this is one of the very few times in all of recorded history that I can say in public,“I don’t believe!”, and not die as an immediate result. Even now, though, there are those who would try to take that precious right away from me. Of course, they wouldn’t be hating me, just my “sin”, but too many of them would be willing to “love” me all the way to the grave.
kellibelli, I’d just like to propose another side to the coin which you may or may not wish to incorporate in your worldview (and I realize it applies to a vanishingly small minority, but if it doesn’t apply to ARGGHH! maybe it does/will to someone else you may someday meet) - simply that it makes a difference what the voices/urges are saying. I imagine St. Francis of Assisi, were we to meet him on the street, might well qualify for the same therapeutic regimen you urge on ARGGHH, yet on the whole his influence seems to have been a positive one.
The same thing might apply to artists - there seems to be a significant (in the statistical sense) correlation between various kinds of mind…unorthodoxies…and creativity. I for one would not want to live in a world without the more creative types, or where everyone was medicated into “normalcy.”
As for ARG220, anyone know what the 220 part meant? Have we ever had a JOHN316 here, for example?
regarding hearing the voice of God-
I used to think the same thing Kelli did about people hearing “The Voice” being crazy. Until I got married and my husband told me this:
His brother (a minister) used to be a street junkie who landed himself in a Psych hospital for an attempted suicide. Lots of bad, bad, evil stuff going on. He had never even been to church, EVER. One day he was in the hospital (detoxing)- he had been there for several weeks already. He says he literally heard the voice of God- and God told him to get his shit together (I’m paraphrasing), move to Dallas, and become a minister. He did just that. He now is in charge of a huge clothing/food bank and has dedicated his life to God, who he says still speaks to him on occasion. (From some personal events I’ve witnessed myself, I believe him. And I’m not religious at all).
So just a little input on God talking to people. (Weird but true)
While I doubt God is worried about who reads the SDMB, just wanted to add my two cents about that whole issue.
On the Adam issue, I hope he takes this time to learn a little tolerance and understanding of other religions and opinions.
Run for the hills, folks! Or you’ll be up to your armpits in martians!