Sorry for interfering in your obviously private conversation with Major Feelgud, which was so clearly labeled as such.
fuck you
It’s that “find out what happened, etc.” that makes many of us think you’re going to try to steal the election with lawyers and litigation.
Oh yes, the honorable Republicans would just roll over and take if the shoe was on the other foot. Are you kidding me?
Are we talking about the same Republicans who have devoted the last eight years to bitching, whining and obstructing a Democratic administration because George, Sr., legitimately lost the '92 election? Statesmanlike, my ass!
Johnson, you are an ass and you make little sense at this point.
3400 votes for Buchanan in a primarily democratic county with a strong Jewish vote is high.
3400 votes is high for Buchanan when he only got several hundred votes in the surrounding counties with comparable demographics.
3400 votes for Buchanan is high when hundreds of people think they voted for the wrong person.
This is a problem that needs to be addressed. How we address it is a different issue that many of us are going to argue about.
But if you assert that 3400 is not a sign of something abnormal that should be questioned, then you should take a reality check.
I realize the Pit isn’t the place for rational discussion, but please.
Just because a county with several hundred thousand individuals is primarily Democratic, it does not logically follow that 3400 votes for Buchanon is impossible or even necessarily unlikely.
Just because there’s a strong Jewish vote in that county with several hundred thousand individuals, it does not logically follow that 3400 votes for Buchanon is impossible or even necessarily unlikely (in fact, some would say that makes it more likely).
Counties with comparable demographics? A modest point, but only that.
Hundreds of people saying they voted for the wrong person? If they were so confused, how do they know now? More importantly, if I were for Gore and lived in Palm Beach County, I’d certainly consider claiming I voted for the wrong person since that county will likely decide the election.
Problem that needs to be addressed? Most certainly. As I said above, “I think challenging results is very fair; the true (non-ballot box-stuffing, non-dead people voting) will of the people should be made manifest. We should be extraordinarily careful to make sure we get this right.”
A reality check? Again, Buchanon got thousands of votes in the 1996 primaries. That’s a much better comparison than the points you cite, and an indication that 3400 in this county in this year is not abnormal.
Pissant.
You’re right, since it is a primarily democratic country with a strong Jewish vote, why even bother to put a ballot box there? Just give the votes to Gore. Saves time, no need to bother with this voting shit.
Since the majority of the people of this city I live in are white, let’s throw the African-American mayor out right? why bother with this vote shit?
I can’t remember where I read this, but I recall hearing that Palm County has over 16000 registered Reform party voters, a 110% increase from 1996.
Also, from the statistics of surrounding counties, Buchanan having over 1000 votes is not unlikely, even ignoring the Reform party voter statistics mentioned above.
Curiousor and curiousor.
–Tim
I’m sure you all know this by now, and it’s on some other thread, but both parties OK’d the ballot sheet before the vote, and I read somewhere that they’d been using that style ballot sheet for years.
Our local news just did some kind of unofficial survey where they showed the ballot shit (pun intended) to a roomful of seniors. Yeah, and they showed 2-3 seniors who said “Yeah, this confusing”. What rubbish.
That’s tough shit. So a bunch of people mark the wrong boxes in Palm Beach county. I bet people mark the wrong boxes in AL, CA, MI, etc. Law of averages cancel out the mistakes. And 1/2 the people don’t know what they’re doing when they mark the ballots anyway. There are fucking idiots who vote for whoever has the least letters in the last name, the taller of the two, the younger of the two, the one with the longest marriage. All this shit cancels each other out.
For those of you (like Dignan) who keep saying that Bush is upset about the recount, I think you are wrong or confused. Bush isn’t upset about the recount. Count the votes wait for the absentees, no big deal. He can wait. I’m not sure where you have seen the Bush people saying anything other than “rule of law,” “count the votes,” yadda yadda yadda.
It’s the indication that the Gore camp will not accept the recount that I imagine is so bothersome to the Bush side; that this could end up in litigation and that Gore would try to overturn the election with a team of lawyers. Of course that would be rather irksome to Bush, and justifiably so. To have the winning margin after 2-3 counts and still have to put up with your opponent running around looking for loopholes would be frustrating.
But the two issues are not the same, and should not be confused.
I’m still not convinced that Gore would stoop to those levels, despite all the posturing at the moment.
And, no, I don’t think Bush will drag this into court if the tally comes up in Gore’s favor. Remember, even Gore was all set to concede the election as soon as it looked like Bush had the votes. I expect Bush would give the same courtesy, quickly and graciously.
I think my biggest fear at this point is that whomever DOES finally win the election will have to put up “You’re not the REAL president” bullshit for his entire term - be it Bush or Gore. Whoever becomes president, even the SUGGESTION of that is incredibly damaging to the country, and I think that Gore (or his supporters, to split hairs) is walking on thin ice here.
I would respectfully submit that Jesse Jackson and Mayor Daley are not exactly the Democratic party’s best foot forward in a case like this, although it is a damn shame that that little kid went back to Cuba before Jesse could get his photo op in. That would be a damn fine photo!
I’m afraid he’s stooping to those levels already. That was my rationale for this whole thread. But I think he’s being pushed into by his team.
Jesse Jackson and Daley can fuck off. I’m tired of seeing JJ meddling where he doesn’t belong, always. I hate “religious” figures meddling in politics. Shouldn’t he involve himself more in God’s kingdom rather than this mess down here?
No matter who wins 50% of the people are going to be unhappy. Right now it just seems like the dems are crybabies. Those fucking idiots with the “we want a re-vote now” signs should have their names taken down and never be allowed to vote again.
Before I forget, Dignan is that type of fucking idiot that should never be allowed to vote. He should be castrated so his genes don’t pass on down and lower the average human IQ.
And now Mr. Daley says “If the will of the people is to prevail, Al Gore should be awarded a victory in Florida and be our next president.”
What a complete and utter load of horseshit. If the will of the people is to prevail, the candidate who received the most (real) votes in Florida should be awarded a victory and be our next president. It is precisely comments such as this which are completely unnecessary and will poison further the already tense atmosphere, and the majority of these comments are coming from the Gore camp.
If there is a manual recount, it should be for each and every county in Florida. The tally of the first manual recount should stand, and the loser should say “congratulations” to the winner, and pledge to do everything he can to unite the country. In fact, they should both pledge that right now, in a joint appearance, and should stop their lackeys from making preposterous and inflammatory statements.
Personally, I think this election is the best thing that could have possibly happened to the country. Win loose or draw, I don’t see anyone who is apathetic anymore. While people may be ravening, wiping the foam off their lips and looking to sink their fangs into the most vulnerable part of anyone they can find from the other party, apathetic they aren’t. Given the way we’re finding that the Presidency of the United States, traditionally the most powerful person in the world, could possibly hang on a margin of .0002%, I find it difficult to believe that in 2004 anyone will be able to say “my vote doesn’t count” and manage to keep a straight face.
Whether or not Vice President Gore should, or should not, turn to a judicial solution if he feels that the ballot design in Palm Beach County is open to debate. Perhaps it is 'un-Presidential’; I don’t necessarily think that it is. It is certain that there are dangers for him. If he wins, many people will feel that he ‘stole’ the election using a legal loophole. If, on the other hand, he loses, he is dead as a possible Presidential candidate. He will be forever labeled as a whining cry-baby who cannot accept the ‘will of the pee-pul’. I don’t know if he should or shouldn’t. Perhaps he, and the presidency would be better served if he did decide to stand by the recount(s) and simply let the votes stand. Perhaps he, and the presidency, would be better served if he does turn to the courts to get to the bottom of the situation.
And let’s not delude ourselves. There are questions that should be answered. There is enough cause to go to the courts because of the clusterfuck that is the Palm Beach voting process. Is it the open and shut case that will establish some deep-seated Republican evil conspiracy to defraud the innocent and vulnerable voters that the Democrats seem to think it is? No. Is it merely the whining and griping of a cry-baby trying to ‘steal’ the election away from the rightful winner as the Republicans? Again, it’s not. The ballot appears to be in violation of the standards set forth by the Florida Commissioner of Elections. There is no question that it was confusing to a significant portion of the electorate. Nor should we forget that there is ‘universal suffrage’ in this country. There is no IQ test to qualify prospective voters. (no matter how much we might think it’s needed.)
Republicans have brought up the fact that there were some 15,000 ballots invalidated during the 1996 elections in Palm Beach County. They seem to think that this somehow bolsters their claim that since it’s always been this way, it’s somehow all right. All that means is that the ballots have been fucked up for a long time and should have been corrected before this point. I agree, the only reason they’re being questioned now is that the election rides on them. That, in and of itself, should be a signal. The election rides on this, for Vice President Gore and Governor Bush. Do we as a nation want the election to be decided by ballots that have had serious questions raised about them without looking into it? Although it’s impossible to eliminate all bias, I would feel much more comfortable with this being investigated by judicial review instead of allowing the rabid partisans on both to decide whether or not the votes are legitimate via a screaming contest.
And for everyone who seems to feel that the idea of a court challenge to the voting process in Palm Beach County is an assault upon the sacrosanct electoral process, I would urge you to consider another viewpoint. If this creaking and doddering election process that we so revere is too fragile to emerge intact from a court challenge, perhaps it’s time for it to be changed. The refrain, “we’ve always done it this way!” is wonderful for family traditions, but it is not an affirmative defense when the leadership of the country is at stake.
One of the talking heads on the non-stop coverage all but stood on the desk, rubbing ashes into his forehead and rending his clothing at the mere possibility that the courts might take a bite of this apple. His entire line of reasoning seemed to be “if we open this door, where does it stop? You can always find ‘irregularities’ if we look for them.” My reaction consisted of: “Aaaaaaaand your point would be… what?” The election process is, without question, fairer and cleaner than it has been in decades, if not ever. But the idea that bringing this suit will establish some sort of slippery slope in which all the other election results will suddenly be suspect is ridiculous.
***** Author’s Note: *For the record, so you can read whatever bias you’d like into the statement: I’m an independent who voted for Vice President Gore. I felt that he was better qualified to carry out the duties, but I certainly wouldn’t consider myself a Gore partisan. Make of it what you will.
Ankh_Too, you have a decidedly cool head in the midst of a very heated argument. I think that scares me 
I agree, Spoofer. I think we should just throw away this whole damn election and have Ankh_Too as our president. He’s shown to have a cool head–and is certainly smarter than Dubya (like that’s a stretch). 
As I pointed out, a Republican candidate has already done this. Ellen Sauerbrey whined and sued and demanded recounts after losing an election far less deadlocked than this, and in my mind with less cause for concern. So what it Baltimore City came in late? You think the massively overwhelming working-class, black population isn’t going to vote overwhelmingly Democrat? The last Republican Gov we elected was Spiro T Agnew.
Seems to me that that election featured a Republican whining and posturing and whatnot about a hell of a lot less, and with less on the line. So to all you assholes who think Gore has a monopoly on it and your party is so goddamn upright: fuck off.
Ankh Too: damn straight; suddenly, everybody cares. I’d hate to be a non-voter in FL right now–everybody’d want to kill you.
Interesting, I too think that Gore is better qualified, but I think it’s the ideology behind the candidate which is more important.
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“Whether or not Vice President Gore should, or should not, turn to a judicial solution if he feels that the ballot design in Palm Beach County is open to debate.”
That is not open to debate. If there was a question, it should have been brought up prior to the election, not afterwards when it didn’t go his way. -
“Perhaps he, and the presidency would be better served if he did decide to stand by the recount(s) and simply let the votes stand.”
True, Gore’s Presidency would become tainted for ever, in history, in the future, if somehow it managed to turn in his favour. He will be marked as the President who cheated to get it. He’s better off without it. -
“He will be forever labeled as a whining cry-baby who cannot accept the ‘will of the pee-pul’. I don’t know if he should or shouldn’t.”
He is labelled that already. I think his career is shot, not matter which way it goes. That plus because of his stupid exaggerations. -
“The ballot appears to be in violation of the standards set forth by the Florida Commissioner of Elections. There is no question that it was confusing to a significant portion of the electorate.”
Sorry, tough shit. As stated in 1) this should have been brought up prior to the elections. -
“And for everyone who seems to feel that the idea of a court challenge to the voting process in Palm Beach County is an assault upon the sacrosanct electoral process.”
It is. Should the Presidency be picked by 7 or 12 jurors? It’s a joke. We as a nation would become a joke. Gore challenging this is a joke. -
“if we open this door, where does it stop? You can always find ‘irregularities’ if we look for them.”
Unfortunately, this is true. We have become a nation of fucking idiots where no one will take responsibility, where the law is a fucking travesty. The law is used by people to turn things their own way, it’s not a set of rules we live by anymore.