But does this change the fact that Gore’s people doing it now is whiney?
“If all the Republicans in the country jumped off a cliff, would you, too?” 
ankh has written a very reasonable, fair minded thread, and in the PIT, too. Shame on you!
Folks- not complaining about something before hand- does not make something that is illegal into something legal. I am not sure if that ballot WAS illegal- but if it was- they have to do something. If it was just confusing- well- then don’t use it again, that’s all.
Yes, there have been irregularities in the past- and in this election- and the Courts have consistently taken a position of : “if it did not matter, then you are out nothing, and we won’t do anything about it.” It is possible (EG)that one State did not properly ratify the 16th Admendment- but as Cecil & the SCOTUS has said- “Don’t matter- enuf OTHER states ratified it”. But this is different, as just a few vote DO matter- and a LOT.
I hope this Election does not hinge on just five votes- and the 5 I mean are those of SCOTUS. But if it does go to them, then, we will have a final answer.
Regardless of what a Republican governor did in another election or what the Bush campaign might do in a similar situation, the Democrats really should shut the fuck up with their whining and demanding. If I were Gore, I’d get Daley and others to stay away from the reporters, because they are so obviously full of shit that it will hurt his credibility if elected.
There are plenty of legal recourses available to them, which I would not necessarily begrudge them for taking advantage of. However, to go on national television and start outlining the fight you intend to make if you don’t get the result you want. Basically, they look like sore losers, and they haven’t even necessarily lost yet.
Bush and his advisors have appeared to me as actually acting in a manner that I would much rather see from a President. Plus, they have avoided saying anything to really damage their credibility in the past couple days. The rhetoric coming from the Republicans seems to be patient, rational, and cooly confident. The rhetoric from the Democrats has been spoiling for a fight and wildly speculative, presuming to know “the will of the people” before the votes are even all in.
I have no idea what would happen if each were in the opposite position, but the Republicans are being a lot more responsible than they could be in their position, so I see no reason to think that the same wouldn’t be true if they were in the Democrats’ position. The more I see, the more I’d prefer to see Bush in office. For all his famous stupidity, he seems to be light years ahead of Gore when it comes to being rational.
Oh, and for the record, I’m a conservative-leaning libertarian. As a Massachusetts voter, I can honestly say that my vote doesn’t count. Let’s just say that in Massachusetts, had Nader kept “stealing” Gore votes, a Nader victory would have been about as likely as a Bush victory. As it was, I think Nader got his largest percentage there (6%).
WHO funds this jerk 9the “reverend” jackson) to go around Palm beach spewing out his idiotic take on things?
Gore should tell this idiot to SHUT UP!!
I heard the republicans want a recount of Oregon and Iowa and 2 other states that were close!
I think all amercians will celebrate when its finally over.
It does, however, change the “Republican’s wouldn’t do this” opinion expressed a few times above. Perhaps I should have made that more clear.
Just so you know, I voted bush. That said,
I agree bush would be very petty indeed if he requested a recount (though I don’t consider it a “threat”, per se). I agree that there were anomalies in florida, but there are anomalies in every state, in every election. To those who were denied help, or denied a replacement ballot upon legitimate request, that is an outrage. Regrettably, I believe it is something that happens far more often than we’d like to believe, and it is a problem which needs correction. However, the feds shouldn’t correct it, we should. By volunteering to assist at the polls and make sure everyone’s right to participate in the process is protected and excersised according to their will.
I am prepared to accept whichever man is elected president. The beauty of our system of government is having the voices of the citizens decide the leader of the nation. If Gore is elected, I’ll not be thrilled. But I will be content in the knowledge that our system (for all of it’s flaws) works and that the citizens have chosen the leader they feel will serve our best interests.
That being said, for the people of Palm Beach requesting revotes because the ballot was confusing, I have this to say.
Go to hell.
Apparently this ballot has been used in Palm Beach before. That being the case, it was good enough then, it’s good enough now. If the people of fl had sued at first use of the ballot, that may have had a valid argument. claiming it’s confusing and/or misleading now is a bunch of crap. So shut up and deal with it already. You screwed up. That’ll learn ya. Next time, pay attention to what’s going on around you for more than the 25 seconds you’re in the voting booth. You had the power to alter the ballot before 7 Nov 2000. How many people brought the matter before the courts? In how many florida / palm beach elections in the past few years were people allowed a revote due to this confusing ballot? “None”, you say? Well, I guess we should stick with that number.
To Daley, I have this to say: If the will of the people is to prevail, they must excersise some intelligence. That could have overcome these problems. Ahh, but hindsight is always 20/20, isn’t it.
Incompetence is no excuse. You excersised your right to vote, and you chose poorly. Accept the responsibility and live with the consequences. You have the right to vote, not the right to be stupid and protected from all consequences of that stupidity.
I don’t know if y’all have seen this yet but as it turns out the intial pictures of what the ballots in palm beach looked like were not the real thing! A local paper just published what they really looked like. You can see here:
http://www.stormloader.com/users/kpham/Floridaballot.jpg
Seeing that I can understand the confusion! Perhaps it should have looked like this
http://sites.netscape.net/brucestorey/ballot.gif
All italics above are my emphasis.
Alot of “would-be’s” and “could happen’s” and the like
You seem to be quite “informed” about events that have not transpired.
Don’t project your basic character flaws onto others. Just because that’s the way you would behave does not automatically say others would do the same. Don’t presume to slander the other guy by assuming his behaviour would be the same as your own in similar circumstances. It makes you out to be an uninformed idiot.
Quote from Major Feelgud…
"You’re right, since it is a primarily democratic country with a strong Jewish vote, why even bother to put a ballot box there? Just give the votes to Gore. Saves time, no need to bother with this voting shit.
Since the majority of the people of this city I live in are white, let’s throw the African-American mayor out right? why bother with this vote shit?"
Are you happy? Finished twisting my words into the wind of hyperbole?
Calm down.
Republican, Democrat, or Independent doesn’t matter a whit when it comes to behavior – it’s the character of the individual.
As has been stated earlier in this thread, what we’re seeing from the Gore camp is someone acting like a loser before the results are in.
It makes me wonder how much of the loser attitude would be seen from the Oval office. I can just see it now – President Gore doesn’t like the way North Korea is negotiating so he sends Jackson and Wexler in to insite the crowd before suing.
Not a pretty picture.
FWIW, I’m a Libertarian idealist that given a choice will move right of center long before I’ll move left.
Just out of curiousity, which news channels are you watching? There is one Republican spokesperson I wish they’d muzzle. He’s shouts down others in debates, not letting them get in a word edgewise. I’ve seen him actually roll his eyes and sigh.
As a side note, I’m also a Nader supporter. So I don’t feel attached to either the dems or the rep.
I don’t think that Gore is whiny cry-baby. I think he is a guy who may have won an election only to lose on a technicality. In my mind, it’s perfectly reasonable to explore all avenues before conceding. I do wish they’d tone down the rhetoric though and stop saying “vast majority”. There is no vast majority in this election. If there were, we would know who our president is already.
I don’t see republicans as heartless assholes either for moving forward on their transition plan, because it appears that they will be the ones to win the office. It’s the reasonable and responsible thing to do to get to work as soon as possible. However, I’d like to see them tone down the rhetoric as well. I think their insistence on a democrat conspiracy to “confuse the American people” and “two wrongs make a right” is off-base.
I also think the argument that Buchanan legitimately garnered that many votes is weak at best. In 1996, he was running as a Republican. Just because he left the party doesn’t mean his voters did as well. Also, a larger Reform Party population still doesn’t mean anything. He has managed to alienate many Reform Party voters (which is why he saw nowhere near the numbers Perot pulled and why the party is currently split in two).
Could someone debunk this CNN graph. Are all the counties shown vastly less populated than Palm Beach? I’m usually distrustful of graphs unless I know the full story behind it.
Hmmm… I don’t know. Let’s try it and find out.
You go first.
Interesteing analysis of voting practices throughout Florida here
Pretty clearly shows something was amiss in PBC.
I agree with other posters that the main problem going forward is legitimacy. Whoever wins, the other side will question their right to the office forever.
I say we drop them both and make Cecil the prez!!
Thanks for the link. Made me smile for the 1st time in days. It’s good to visit a world where “heteroskedasticity” is a problem.
Unfortunately simply because you feel this way doesn’t make it so. Florida law has shown that the Courts have the power to invalidate election results and order a new election. Whether or not they should do that is very much open for debate. The fact that the Florida courts have stepped in prior to this should illustrate, even to the most rabid supporter of Governor Bush, that there is precedent for a court challenge.
I think that’s a bit of hyperbole. I don’t exactly see Rutherford Hayes’ name reviled throughout history because of the fraudulent manner in which he gained the presidency. It’s a footnote in history, prior to 3 days ago; it was interesting only to historians, professional political theorists and twisted trivia junkies such as myself (and others).
Assuming that the recount numbers hold, and Vice President Gore decides that it would be better not to pursue a court challenge, would Governor Bush’s presidency be any more legitimate? He would have become president by taking advantage of a flawed ballot that disenfranchised a significant portion of voters in a single county in Florida. His presidency would be based on subverting the will of the people, would it not? There is substantial evidence to suggest that more people went to the polls in Florida intending to vote for Vice President Gore than for Governor Bush. By your logic, Governor Bush will be tainted forever because of the manner in which he won the election.
Personally, I don’t believe either case to be true. If Vice President Gore decides not to press a court challenge, Governor Bush is the legitimate winner of the presidential election. If, there is a court challenge and the vote totals are left to stand as they are, Governor Bush will still be the legitimate winner. If, in the extremely unlikely event that the result of a judicial review leads to a new vote in Palm Beach County, and Vice President Gore is elected by a wide enough margin to give him the state’s electoral votes, his presidency would be just as legitimate as Governor Bush’s.
You cannot simply dismiss the questions that have been raised about the ballots with a statement about how it should have been corrected prior to the election. Once again, I agree that the flaws with the ballots should have been addressed prior to the election. Not, as you seem to think, because any objection to them is now invalid, but because this entire clusterfuck would have been avoided in the first place.
The question is simply whether or not the flawed ballots disenfranchised enough people so that judicial relief is warranted. The standard is “a significant non-compliance”. Whether or not it meets that standard is not a question that I can answer. Nor is it a question you can answer. That is something only a judge can decide. For every election law expert that you find that says there’s no basis for the suit, there’s another that says there is plenty of evidence. The 1997 mayoral election in Miami certainly established precedent that allows the court system to redress issues of voter irregularities. Once again, I don’t necessarily believe that Vice President Gore should go through a court challenge; I think the downside for him outweighs any possible upside. There is a very important distinction between a pragmatic decision and having no legitimate cause for action.
Is the Republican resistance to a thorough recount any less ridiculous? If anything, it strikes me as more so. Iowa, Wisconsin and New Mexico are all close enough to deserve a recount. In New Mexico, the difference has narrowed to some 164 votes according to an AP report (As seen on MSNBC 4:44 pm) and has caused MSNBC to take New Mexico and label it as ‘undecided’. A hand recount there certainly seems warranted. James Baker portrayed the Republicans as feeling that additional recounts are unnecessary in Florida. In my view, recounts are needed everywhere that the votes are this close. With the difference down to 327 votes out of a total of over six million cast, the margin is on the order of 0.00545%.
The national popular vote has narrowed to a difference of 18,199 votes, with California having up to 1,000,000 absentee ballots still to count.
It also seems difficult for the Republicans to seize the moral high-ground when some are calling for court challenges to the vote total in Wisconsin, alleging fraud on the part of at least one Democrat supporter. If it’s proper in one area, i fail to see how it’s improper in another.
We are a nation of law, or so we claim with a great deal of satisfaction. It was one of the founding precepts of this country. The tendency of people to turn to the law as a way to redress what they perceive to be injustices should not come as a surprise to you, or anyone else.
I’d have to disagree with you on this one. I think Governor Bush’s actions have been somewhat presumptuous. This is purely an opinion, as you said, but in my view, he seems to be acting almost as a prince awaiting his inevitable coronation than a candidate who may (or may not) have won the presidency. It doesn’t bother me that he is actually thinking and considering how to handle the transition; two months is a short time in which to set up a new government. What bothers me is that he and his subordinates leaked it to the press in order to impress upon the people that he was being ‘presidential’.
Again, I think we all bring our own preconceptions and personal ideas about ‘proper behavior’ in this situation to the table with us. It’s not a major point against (or for) him. Just a minor difference I have in interpretation.
Personally, I don’t think either party has come off particularly well in this situation. The Democrats do seem to be combative and prematurely threatening a court case before the recount is even finished. The Republicans seem to be attempting to hurry through the recounts and begrudge any attempt to further investigate what may be legitimate questions about the election. Nor do the screaming idiots in the streets of Palm Beach County do anything to enhance the image of either party.
The more I consider it, the more I come to the conclusion that a court case brought by Vice President Gore would be a mistake. Not, I emphasize, because there is no merit to the idea that there is cause, but because, no matter what the outcome, he will end up losing. That said, I stand amazed that people will assert that an important consideration in denying the merits of a court challenge is that “you can always find irregularities and anomalies”. This line of reasoning completely escapes me. The right to vote is too precious to diminish it in such a backhanded manner. I realize that the voting system is not perfect, but to say that we shouldn’t look under the rug because we’re going to find dust is shortsighted. Each and every case of irregularity should be investigated. To accept that they exist and yet pretend that they don’t matter seems intrinsically ridiculous.
Well, I wrote that before Bush started planning the transition to the extent he has this morning, so I’ll concede that he seems be acting rather presumptuous as well. Anyways, the attitudes that I would think would be most appropriate to each candidate at the moment:
Gore: Concede that he does not yet have the votes, but maintain that he has no intention of conceding the election until every vote is counted. Stress the importance of acting in accordance with the laws, and mention legal reourses in the context of getting most accurate count possible, rather than goal of winning.
Bush: Maintain confidence that he will remain ahead as votes are counted. Stress that the US is governed by laws that must be applied objectively. Avoid claiming victory at the moment, and urge caution all around.
Apparently, it’s not just the 19,000 morons whose votes the Democrats want to claim. There’s another 10,000 ballots which had no vote cast for President, which the Democrats for some reason feel would break for them, if the actual intentions of these voters could be known. Further evidence of the confusion, they claim.
Now, given all the griping (as always) over the crappy selection of candidates, is it all that unreasonable to think that 10,000 people in Palm Beach County simply decided they didn’t like any of their choices for President, but wanted to vote for sanitation truck driver?
And, in my opinion, there’s no problem with either candidate planning for a transition. I think that’s the prudent path, given that this won’t be resolved for several weeks at least. There’s also no problem and no pettiness from the Bush camp for being interested in pursuing recounts in other states if they lose Florida. With differences of several hundred in NM now (apparently), and only several thousand in Iowa and Wisconsin, and the outcome uncertain in Oregon, why would we only want an accurate count of the votes in four Democratic-leaning counties in Florida, but not these other states?
Again, one recount is valid; a further manual recount is valid. But it should end there. Threatening court cases, and (outrageously) setting up 800 numbers and processing centers with pre-prepared complaints and notaries present does nothing but foster ill will and the suspicion that one side is out to win at all costs, with no regard for anything other than that.
The latest I saw on New Mexico (on Yahoo, which I prefer because they list Browne as a Libertarian, not an independant), the margin was 184 votes with only 99% counted. MSNBC now has it listed as too close to call. Oregon seems to be shaping up to be Gore’s though.