Can you summarize her argument, for the benefit of non-Polish-speakers?
Bear in mind that this so-called “conflict between Israel and Poland” is almost entirely one-sided - Israel said what it had to say, and has since moved on to more immediate concerns. This whole thing has little to do with Israel or even the Holocaust, really. It’s an internal matter, and it’s mostly about Poland’s recent slide into totalitarianism.
NO, not stigmatizing. I am glad, very glad, that you’re working on getting well. I think you can do it, man. I have been through some kinda shit too, in the past…felt like I was at the bottom of a well with greased walls. But I did climb out and so can you. You will figure this shit out, just try to forget about the Jews and Poland and all this pointless sectarian division. It says you’re in Montreal, I’ve been there many times, it’s beautiful. Is your first language French? Or are you Polish? In any case, you’re lucky just to live in Montreal.
First this. When the Messiah comes, the non-jews will be slaves to the Jews. GOYIM.
I can’t truly summerize her argument. I’d have to translate it first. I speak Polish but I don’t feel apt to translate.
In short, she delves into historical facts which she cited as well from Jewish sources.
Otherwise the facts are a common complaint.
There’s a bizarre eye for an eye tooth for a tooth effect with Poles refusing to admit their own guilt.
Pogroms happened as in Jedwabne which is really linked to the Nazis who used the local population to shift the blame on the Poles for burning the area’s Jews in a barn. The Poles deny it. And the government isn’t able to exhume the victims because the historical process has met with opposition from the chief Rabbi.
But Poles have done terrible things to the Jews regardless of the Jedwabne case.
Thank you for writing. I am Polish and part Jewish.
I am born in Montreal.
I’m not letting go until both sides live up to the true facts about Poland & Israel being guilty of crimes against each other. This conflict is raging and needs to get solved. I used RAGING as in a Dylan tune.
About a battle outside &&&
I can’t write a song myself. So this thread is the best I can do.
You CAN write a song, there are numerous things even in the thing you wrote that could be developed into a song. Don’t sell yourself short. If you like Bob Dylan, just learn a few basic guitar chords (it’s not hard to do) and then try to copy some of his songs with adding your own lyrics…that’d be a good starting point.
People who think a lot, like you do, gotta channel that energy into something creative and productive.
What crime against Poland is Israel guilty of? What crime against Israel is Poland guilty of?
Sadly yes. She’s the one. She used to be very popular and a serious researcher. Sorry she slipped.
I wasn’t aware of her opinion about fun in the ghettos.
She was misunderstood or misquoted? I think she’s Jewish herself. And she’s got enemies in high places because she’s outspoken.
Um… are you saying there are no Polish-Americans? No Jews in Americans?
Granted, the majority of Americans are probably clueless, but not all. You’re coming across as someone who sees people in monolithic blocks and that’s not how people are, they aren’t uniform.
Right, that - the Israelis (and the larger Jewish diaspora) are pretty clear those camps were located in Poland, hence the geographical reference “Polish concentration camps” as opposed to, say, “Serbian concentration camps” like Banjica located in another place. The Poles want to disclaim these places and have them referred only as “German camps” or, more accurately, “Nazi camps” to distance themselves from what happened there. It’s a difficult issue for any nation that had these camps, but more so for the Poles because all but one of the outright extermination camps that existed solely to kill people were located in Poland.
However, consider that Germany and Israel currently have good relations even though the Nazis were very clearly German. It was a long road, and a difficult one, and required that Germany not varnish what had occurred during WWII. If this could be done by Germany it should be something that any nation in Europe could accomplish.
While both the Jews and Poland were victims of the Nazis, there continues to be friction between them.
Some Jews hate Poland, often Jews who survived WWII in Poland and went through absolute hell. Yes, some Poles were Nazi collaborators - when the Nazis rolled through Europe a lot of anti-Semitic bigots used it as an excuse to go on a rampage and exercise their own hate. But no, Israelis do not uniformly hate Poles, nor do Jews in a broader sense
There IS a sense that Poland has not come to terms with the fact that some Poles committed war crimes as collaborators with the Nazi invaders. There is a lack of acknowledgement that in a sense the Nazis won in Poland - before WWII there were over 3 million Jews living in Poland. Today, a mere 8,000 or so, and that’s after a population rebound. Germany, the origin of Nazism where the Final Solution was invented, has nearly 100,000. The Nazis killed 90% of the Jews in Poland, and it puzzles no one why so may survivors fled. The fact that Poland was the only Eastern Block nation that let the Jews leave without hassle likely had something to do with that as well - many Jews in other USSR controlled nations wanted to leave but were prevented from doing so.
Even so - the rate of collaboration of Poles with Nazis was no greater than anywhere else in Europe, and less than 1% of the population. Poland had more people risk their lives to save Jews than anywhere else, and this is recognized by both Israel and the Jewish diaspora. I’m not entirely sure Poland is aware of this recognition.
But a lot of the dispute is that people in Poland seem to not understand that while Jews say “Auschwitz is a Polish concentration camp” they’re referring to geography and not which nation controlled it and recognize that Poland was victimized, abused, and its people murdered by the Nazis, many in that very same camp. I suspect language and translation difficulties are a factor here.
You have mentioned this before and I asked for more detail. WHAT “Stalinist” crimes? It’s not like Stalin had any love for Jews and if there was any sort of cooperation between Jews and the USSR during WWII it was like that between the US and USSR - enemies joining forces against another enemy that threatened them both. The USSR ruthlessly suppressed Judaism the religion and Jewish culture.
If you’re talking about the Sonderkommando it’s hard for them to take “responsibility” for what they did as the vast majority were systematically murdered after three months on the job, and none of them volunteered, they were picked out of line and put to work and if they didn’t like it or showed any resistance they were summarily shot. Even the Nazis didn’t demand they kill their own, “merely” asked them to cremate the bodies and dispose of the evidence.
Yes, that has made the news.
Not terribly helpful to those who don’t speak Polish.
Again - what crimes are you talking about? Can you give an example? Preferably more than one?
Yes, this is true.
Well, OK, please, do more research and seek information from a variety of sources.
What crimes is Poland accused of, and who is doing the accusing?
It’s pretty universally recognized that the responsible party for the atrocities in Poland in WWII are the Nazis, not the Poles, and about six million Poles were killed during that war.
yes, this is true, however, I think you may be inflating the importance of this one particular point of contention.
- Jewish Stalinist collaborators. And plain communists later who harshly repressed the Polish anti-communist opposition. Hundreds of thousands were killed. People like Jakub Berman are guilty.
Stalin purposefully picked his henchmen among the Jews in the Red Army. To specifically pacify Poland. - Poles participated in pogroms in which countless Jews died. They sold Jews off to the Nazis. And so forth.
I am learning about it myself.
Poland is still in a transition period since the fall of communism.
Many historical facts are just coming out.
Wait, do you think “Jewish people” and “Israelis” are the same thing, or what? Because what you’re describing predates the existence of Israel.
OK, just a minute or two into the video and the speaker is identified as “Neturei Karta”, a Jewish fringe group that many Jews question are even Jewish in views and practice anymore. It’s like holding up Westboro Baptist Church as an example of mainstream Christianity. Holy cow, these are anti-Israeli Jews who believe the state of Israel should be dismantled. Even most of the other ultra-Orthodox Jews think these guys are nuts.
Again, you are focusing on the exceptions and the extremes. Neturei Karta is, at most, 5,000 people. There are about 14 million Jews around the world (and Neturei Karta denies the existence of half of them). You’re focusing on 0.04% of Jews and saying they represent than other 99.96%. This is not logical or rational.
Not to mention other Jews in the video go on to openly laugh at the notion, and to talk about the anti-slavery parts of the holy writings.
Yes. Because that requires some hard self-reflection.
WWII was hell, and it drove even good men to do terrible things even as it gave bad men an excuse to do even worse things.
Great, now I’m supposed to give my slaves weed?
Do you experience internal conflict over this? Given that you speak Polish I assume you have some familiarity with Poland and its culture, how familiar are you with Judaism? Could some of this conflict come from knowing one side of your heritage and not the other?
It would help if you were more specific about these crimes. Also, understand that the rest of the world understand that many crimes occurred on Polish territory during WWII that Poland is not responsible for, and indeed, many Poles died trying to prevent.
Whether or not she’s Jewish has no bearing on whether or not she has her facts straight. A quick bit of research indicates that it was around 2006 when all this controversy with Ewa Kurek blew up.
She seems to mistake attempts of Jews to distract themselves from being under siege, imprisoned in ghettos, with people crowded multiple families to a room, people literally dying of starvation in the street because they didn’t have money to buy food on the black market, epidemics of illness also killing people, with “having fun”. With being able to hold sabbath services and education people with somehow being OK - well, hell, Jews attempted to educated children even in the concentration camps, with a few instances of bar mitzvahs occurring in the camps but that doesn’t mean everything was OK or that those Jews were free. It was people trying to cling to life despite being on a sinking ship. The notion that the Warsaw ghetto was somehow “autonomous” is bullshit. It was a fenced in area where Nazis stored Jews before carting them off the gas chambers. It’s like saying a field full of cattle milling around outside a slaughterhouse are “free” because at that particular moment no one is using a cattle prod to force them to do things.
She talks about the Judenrat, the Jews who acted as representatives of Jews and their community to the Nazis. The fact that they tried to negotiate and yielded on various points is nothing new and has to be viewed in historical context. They were attempting to save Jews when confronted with an enemy that wanted them wiped from the face of the Earth.
She also seems to think the sonderkommando were involved in actual killing of Jews. They weren’t. It’s very clear they weren’t, both from their own accounts AND Nazi records - the sonnderkommando were involved with body disposal and processing of items taken from the dead, they did not act as executioners.
Berman was a communist before WWII. He happened to come from a Jewish family. That doesn’t mean he was representative of all Jews. Again, you are mistaking an outlier for the majority.
Part of the reason the Holocaust happened was blaming a large group of people for the actions of a few of that group. If we don’t move past that we’ll only continue to repeat atrocities. Hence, why I distinguish between “Nazis” and “Germans”. Nazis were horrible people, but only a subset of Germans and it is unjust to blame all Germans for the actions of the Nazis.
Likewise, there have been bad Polish people, but it would be unjust to blame all Poles for their actions. There have been bad Jews, but it would be unjust to blame all Jews for their actions.
Jakub Berman alone bears responsibility for his crimes, not all Jews and not all Poles.
Yes. That IS how autocrats operate. The fact he had to pick through Jews in the Red Army (already a small minority of that army) to find proper collaborators should tell you that such people were rare and in no way representative of the larger group.
Yes. This is not news. However, those particular Poles are responsible for their crimes, NOT Poland as a whole. As I’ve noted, Polish collaborators were less than one percent of the Polish population. They are not representative of the Polish people as a whole.
Please continue to learn more. However, be wary of where your information is coming from. There are numerous fringe ideas, many of which are contradicted by the raw facts.
Two questions:
- Have you ever been to Poland?
- You keep using the same “Goyim as slaves” title in your posts. What does that even mean?
I see my advice went unheeded. Seriously. Sing a song about this. Hell, it could be a punk rock song or something, it can be all angry and full of rage if you’re pissed off about something regarding all this Jewish/Polish shit, just channel these feelings into something creative rather than just rambling screeds. You will thank me later! Man, you will build confidence, you’ll get attention from the girls/guys that you want, and if it takes off, you could actually go somewhere with it. If not, just busk on street corners or something, just preferably not Poland or Israel. I’m thinking San Francisco.
Thank you to all. Does anybody know how to close the thread? I’m in deep doo doo, obviously. Indeed I don’t know anything about the Jews Israel nor Poland and the Poles.
I am super conscious by means of spontaneous kundalini.
Which doesn’t guarantee a high IQ or any knowledge whatsoever.
I used to be a Yoga teacher but went overboard in my personal practice hence the spontaneity.
It’s bad I know.
I’m worried about both Anti-Semitism and Anti-Polonism for nothing.
This tit for tat swinging motion between both nations is sickening and people like Ewa Kurek made it worse. I will review my sources.
Meantime good luck to all.
May love prevail. Peace.
…And with you.
It means that there’s this popular belief that non-jews would be forced to serve their Jewish masters when the Messiah comes.
I’ve heard about it many times. Not just in that video on YouTube I quoted apparently giving in to some kind of biased subgroup.
I thought it provided an answer to the burning question whether Jews were massively capitalist or communist.
I’m wrong of course.
Oh doo doo.