See, you do not understand the nature of atheism. There is no god to have a grudge against. The god you worship doesn’t exist; YHWH is as insubstantial as Thoth or Odin or any other figment of the human imagination. It’s his fan club that irritates me for much the same reasons that devotees of astrology or 12-stepper groups do. They insist that their rules apply to everyone, not merely their own affinity group.
I wouldn’t care if the Pat and Jerry crowd acted as part of the civil fabric and tried to be part of a pluralistic society. but it isn’t enough for them not to participate in gay marriage, they believe they have the right to deny it to everyone. It isn’t enough that they have their eccentric views on the development of life on earth which they are free to listen to on Sundays; they want to suppress science education for everyone because it conflicts with their faith.
You’ll notice that I never go after Jews or Hindus, even though I am certain that their faiths are just as false as yours. You know why? Because they don’t insist on telling everyone else that this is a Jewish or Hindu country in which others have no rights that need be respected; they don’t try to force their religion on everyone else.
I don’t believe in Santa either, but if his followers were as obnoxious as the Pats and Jerrys are, I’d be bitching about candy canes and elf proselytizing.
Sort of the point I was making, actually. For someone who places such a high value on rationality, you don’t display very much of it when it comes to the topic of religion. Your obvious, over-powering hatred of a being you profess not to believe in is… well, I’m going to be charitable and just say that it’s very human.
Which God do I worship again? I keep forgetting.
Yeah, yeah. Heard it before. What you still haven’t seemed to grasp is that you can be a Christian, and not be part of the Pat and Jerry crowd. You sometimes say you understand the difference, but your rhetoric continuously belies this claim.
Which faith is that? I swear, I wrote it down somewhere…
Because you didn’t used to be one, and you don’t have all sorts of unresolved issues with your family because of it?
Oh. Well, that was going to be my second guess.
Except you’d also be complaining about coins under pillows and colored eggs, and pissing off all the people who believe in the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny, even though they’ve done nothing to you and are only connected to the target of your ire in the most tenuous manner.
Before I get any further (and there is more) Cite? I mean a cite other than you hate me for my faith in Christ. I wonder how well it would go over basing my opinion of gays on what I see in your posts.
I have a feeling there are a few million alcoholics that have gotten their shit together that might disagree with your portrayal. See next.
Well, actually you went after everyone here. Worldwide. You’re really expanding your horizons. The second step is belief of a power greater than yourself. It doesn’t have to be a god. It can be as simple as the group. Or the coffee. But since you’re the be-all-end-all, you alone are the supreme entity. Maybe we should have been worshipping you the whole time? :eek:
I’m at the point where I’d rather pay Sol and Miller to tag team me than even consider taking anything you say seriously. You do hate me, even if you won’t acknowledge it, because of my faith.
And what the fuck is with lumping us all in with the “Jerry’s” and “Pat’s”? If you have a problem with them, pit them. And stay on it. When you blame me for what they do, you’re insulting me personally.
I’ve suffered many (deserved) harsh rebukes for what I’ve posted in the past. But I’m trying to open my mind to reasoned debate and many of my views, if not changed, have been severely softened by what I’ve read on these boards. You, however, are one of the few that make me dig my heels in and dismiss anything people on your side agree with.
Fortunately, I think I’ve learned to separate the chaff from the wheat.
So when I point out that your are putting words in my mouth, this is the response.
I was that specific and that still idn’t stop you from accused me of talking about all Christians.
Yes, I am. You choose to ignore it.
And again you miss the point. I have specific problems with the agendas of right-wing church groups. Beyonf that, of course is the philosophical question of the existence of deities, and yes, i do not think that therre is any compelling evidence for that proposition.
[quote]
You do hate me, even if you won’t acknowledge it, because of my faith.
Well let me ask you this. Since you keep mentioning “right-wing” church groups, which church groups are “left-wing”? You can’t have one without the other. Give me some names before you dismount that white steed.
What the hell is that all about? “Tag team?” I left the baby monitor on in the BBQ Pit, heard my name a few dozen times, and finally posted a response.
I’d say Jesus himself would qualify, but how about Sojourners, the Quakers, and groups within the mainline churches. Sr. Helen Prejean and Martin Sheen are examples of the Catholic left. In general, the Christian left emphasizes social justice instead of personal righteous, compassion over condemnation. Siege and Polycarp both fall into the leftish side of their church.
Well, the last several posts have seemed like a tag team match between you (SolGrundy) and Miller vs. gobear and Homebrew.
It’s a bit like watching two prizefighters attacking a brick wall. And then a poxed one-legged duck walks into the scene and says he’d rather pay to fight with you and Miller then listen to the wall.
Let me jump in here, then I’ll go back to watching this wrasslin’ match.
It looks like we all agree, but are arguing the wrong point. It isn’t Og or Jeebus or Odin we’re all pissed at, it’s those wingnut preachers who have the unmitigated affrontery (I haven’t used that in a while) to think they can dictate to the rest of the world. The reason they are in the forefront right now is because they simply won’t shut the fuck up. Anybody here have a beef with Francis of Assisi? Or Mother Theresa? Probably not. They weren’t assholes. The news grabbing troglodytes are assholes, and that gets media attention. If we could launch a Sinister Conspiracy and convince everyone to just ignore them, they would dry up and blow away. You guys really have no problem with religion, you have a problem with the leeches and parasites that are making hay off of it.
A brick wall? I taske it you mean me. I may have to plead guilty.
I see no evidence for the existence of supernatural entities, so I remain a non-believer. I’m not bending on that one.
I see that villains and con artists use faith to con their followers and to infringe on personal liberties in this country. Exhibit A, the Schiavo circus, in which the fundamentalists and their political fellow travelers are trying to subvert the judicial process. I don’t think the ascendancy of religious conservatives is good for liberty in this country. I’m not budging on that one, either.
Someone in this thread said, “You want to make a difference? Then attack the actions of people, don’t insist on knocking down their beliefs.” but if that is so, then shut this board down now because everything we do in Gd and the Pit is knocking down beliefs. The Dems and the Pubs go at each other, the creationsists and the educated conflict with one another. If we don’t debate beliefs, then we just turn into a pack of passive nullities who abandon the use of critical thought.
And some beliefs need to be knocked. Some people are passionately committed to ending civil rights for gay people; I oppose that, yes, like a brick wall. I oppose astrology, and tarot reading, and know-nothing Greens and ignorant Pubs who don’t listen to sound enviromental science. I oppose belief in ghosts and John Edward.
Some beliefs ought to be opposed our of loyalty to the species.
As far as I am concerned, gobear, you are quite welcome to challenge my beliefs, and I’m pretty sure that goes for the rest of the Episcopalians here, and for the greater share of the other Christian members as well, though I can’t generalize for all of them.
All I ask is that it’s my beliefs that get questioned and discussed, not what some goombah who doesn’t know me from Adam (not you, 'bear, but a newbie “evangelical atheist”) supposes me to believe because I call myself a Christian. That I get treated with the respect that the member expects to get back (i.e., if I’ve been at pains to explain how I examined my beliefs for possible psychological causes, I don’t want aforementioned goombah to explain to me how I’ve “been brainwashed by the power structure”). And that someone not play bait-and-switch tactics with me in regards to the doctrines we’re working with. That’s why my perpetual rants about people buying into the fundy Biblical-literalism paradigm in order to reject Christianity on the basis of it: that’s not what I believe, it’s not what I’m saying, and if you proved to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that Timothy Leary wrote the Book of Ezekiel on a particularly strange trip and then telepathically sent it back into time to become Scripture, that doesn’t do diddly-squat to my belief structure: it’s not directly founded on the Bible, it only uses the Bible as a data source. I find the Great Jerusalem Good Friday Zombie Invasion as ludicrous as the clowns who repeatedly bring up Matthew 27:52-53 in the middle of discussions, as if it proves something. What it proves is that Matthew had a rather odd belief structure, and that a believer in Biblical literalism needs to explain those verses away. It doesn’t say shit about what I believe.
Besides, I fail to see any evil in such things as:
“Thou shalt not kill” or “Thou shalt not steal” or “Love thy neighbor as thyself”. Those things are THE BIG MESSAGE.
It’s the sort of thing we should be doing anyway, out of our “loyalty to the species”.
I think it’s a damn shame The Big Invisible Guy had to WRITE IT DOWN IN STONE for us. That alone is a pretty harsh commentary on the human race.