To be fair to the two of them, I’ve dished out some vitriol of my own and am not blameless in the escalation of tensions here. Still, I hadn’t realized the depth of their animosity toward me, like getting called “skeevy” for saying anything remotely complimentary to them. I really did think that underneath the anger that they were decent guys with the guts to stand up for their convictions. Turns out they’re just the gay versions of JoeCool and JerseyDiamond.
I don’t have a dog in this fight, and I don’t want to keep a heated discussion alive for longer than it should, but could you explain how you got to the conclusion that they don’t have the guts to stand up for their convictions? Which convictions, and how are they not standing up for them?
I won’t speak for Siege on this, but thanks for that apology. The thing is, you can only do what one person can do, and I have literally been making a full-time job out of doing what you all have suggested we should be doing. And had some limited impact, it would seem, from what feedback I get.
Now how do you suggest we get more public about it? Download stuff from www.godhatesfundies.com and start picketing Westboro Baptist with it? (Baker, want some overnight guests?) Though my question is tongue-in-cheek, it’s serious too. If we’re not making enough of an impact, what can we reasonably do to make more of an impact? How do you get a message of peace, patience, compassion, and nonjudgmentalism out there where it will be heard in a world that glorifies the ten-second hatemonger soundbite?
I spent a few days feeling like the smiley that is ramming its head into a brick wall, and I think it showed here. I’ve recovered a bit from that depressed state; what do you suggest I ought to do?
Next time, use all of what I said, not just some snippet you can take out of context. I know what I wrote. You seem to have “missed” the part where I said some individuals need someone bigger and badder to keep them in line.
I don’t have all the answers. But Sojourners is one group working to raise media awareness of Christians striving for social justice. There are others.
There are a bunch of groups out there, but, because they’re not making death threats or picketing or threatening boycots, they don’t get the publicity the likes of Randall Terry and company do. As I was going to say the other day, when the Ku Klux Klan comes to town to hold a rally, that’s newsworthy starting a few days in advance. When the Episcopal Diocescan Committee on Racism holds a day of conferences and workshops to combat racism, that may rate a mention in the list of weekend events, but even that’s not a given. Voyager, I may have one answer to your question. In the 1960’s and 70’s, working for social and racial justice was radical and newsworthy. Remember Lyndon Johnson declared a “War on Poverty”. Today, I suspect that’s simply seen as something good churches are supposed to do, therefore not newsworthy. A church feeding the homless? That’s not news; that’s something that goes on every day. Back when I went to my old church, I was the point person for our church’s participation in the annual, interdenominational CROP Walk to raise money to fight hunger. It was and is a good cause and drew Christians of all forms. It also only got mentioned in my hometown’s bi-weekly newspaper which would print anything you’d send them. The two newspapers which cover the city of Pittsburgh, 20 miles away didn’t have a word about it, even when I sent press releases. Churches coming together to fight hunger isn’t newsworthy; it’s routine.
Homebrew, when I read your post, I did take offense. Here’s why. First, what I felt wasn’t pity; it was a combination of disgust and frustration. I don’t like self pity; my British upbringing tells me it’s self indulgent and unworthy emotion. My history of depression tells me it’s also a very dangerous one, therefore it’s one to be avoided at all costs. I have been known to wallow in it; I don’t like it when I do. That’s why I took offense at being accused of wallowing in it when I wasn’t.
Do you folks honestly think the rise in Fundamentalism doesn’t scare the daylights out of me, too? Remember, I grew up being made to feel unwelcome and unwanted everywhere I went. I still have a hard time wrapping my mind around the notion I might be welcome somewhere. That small town Episcopal church I went to was the only place I felt welcome. If it wasn’t for them, I have every reason to think I would have died. If the Fundamentalists take over, what becomes of churches like that? What becomes of kids like me? These people are threatening to take away something of great importance to me: my religion. I mean, come on! I did the calculations the other day and I’ve gone without sex longer than I’ve gone without going to church. On the other hand, two of the people closest to me, two of the people who’ve seen me through the darkest times in my life are a homosexual man and a Wiccan. Just the other day, I was indirectly accused of being in league with the devil because my church doesn’t oppose homosexuality. It’s not the first time. I gave up going to a Christian message board because the codswollop I saw posted there literally made me so angry I broke a chair. (It was a cheap folding chair.) I have a paranoid streak in me which tells me that they’re going to come after me for being too liberal. Some of them have already made it clear I’m not a real Christian because I don’t believe in Creationism or the End Times or because I’m pro-choice or not anti-homosexual. It wasn’t that long ago that I stumbled into an Episcopal church downtown and asked the priest if I was a real Christian because I wasn’t born again. Fortunately, a man with a nice, reassuring Surrey accent (Mum’s family’s from Surrey) brought me back to reality, or what passes for it for us weird Christians, anyway. :rolleyes:
I’ll also be honest. I’ve been damned tired these days thanks to a case of flu which kept me out of work for 1 week, out of church for 4 weeks (it should have been 5), and kept me from hiking in these gorgeous spring woods because anything more than a mile or so would exhaust me. It even kept me from making love to a man I love dearly for a while because one of the most lingering symptoms is an inflamed lower back and I found myself reaching for massive quantities of ibuprofen the morning after. I’ve spent far too much time frustrated because of the things I want to do but haven’t been able to; to read, “Well you [or people like you] should do more!” when I badly wanted to do more but couldn’t just added to the frustration. Check the posting times, folks. I know I’ve posted a few times at the crack of dawn, even earlier than usual, and it’s because I haven’t been able to sleep.
This whole Terry Shiavo mess has taken a lot out of me. That’s my responsibility, not yours, but I hope you’ll accept it as an explanation. It’s bad enough that some people would deny me access to birth control and require that I die if an ensuing pregnancy endangers my life; now they won’t even give me the right to die in peace. Forget it. 48 hours from now, I’ll be getting together with a mob of friends including that Wiccan gentleman and the gentleman I’m seeing. It’ll be a much needed break, and I’m looking forward to it.
I’ll keep fighting; I’m too stubborn and too stupid to stop. Just remember, please, that not everyone whose fighting is as loud-mouthed as I am, even if we can’t draw the media away from the lunatic, dangerous, frightening fringe.
CJ
Homebrew, I hate to interrupt the not-having-anything-more-to-do-with-me that you’ve been enjoying for the past dozen or so posts. But I just wanted to acknowledge that it sounds like you somehow kinda sort of got the point, to some degree. Here you go, bolding mine:
Of course, ignoring the part where you complain about being “attacked with such vitriol” after you’ve gone on at length about how this is the BBQ Pit and people need to get a thicker skin, and the part about “no provocation” when it’s already been established that you were being a condescending prat to Siege and others.
It’s about how you say “you and SolGrundy” and “the two of you” and “your cohorts” and “you Christians” and “ever since you came out” and whatever else you can think of to use to draw lines in the sand to separate “Us” from “Them.” How you stop listening to what people are saying and instead start dragging irrelevant assumptions into it the moment someone disagrees with you. You did it to Miller here, and you’ve done it to me in the past: made some throwaway comment about how if I’m arguing with gobear, it must be some gay thing. Or that it all boils down to some gay issue.
If you truly believe that people with a common trait don’t all think and act in lockstep, then don’t keep acting like they do. Which, wonder of wonders, is actually relevant to a discussion about Christianity and religious tolerance.
I’m sure gobear will correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe this is the first thread I’ve attacked him in, at least in a good long while.
The provocation was what I perceived as an unwarranted attack on one of the kindest, smartest, and most valuable poster on the boards, someone who has gone out of her way in real life to do everything within her power to make life better for you. You want to quibble over the difference between “insulting” and “brusque or impolite,” but either way, you were acting like a dick for no good reason.
But, since you’ve apologized, I’ll stop beating that horse. Good for you for acting like an adult.
That’s all you got? Jesus, that’s some pathetic shit there. Yeah, I said his OP contained hatred. I think that’s justified when it has in it lines like, “God, I love you, but I hate your fan club.” And spectrum, who is never shy about expressing disagreement with anyone, didn’t seem to take exception to that characterization of his OP.
And no, I didn’t make that post to set myself up as “not like those other fags,” I made that post because I felt that there was a chance of actually getting through to prisoner and changing his mind. And guess what? I was right!
So, because I took exception to things you and gobear have said in this thread, and because I once tried to reason with someone who supported an anti-gay agenda instead of just dogpiling him, you’ve come to the conclusion that I make it a habit to disagree with gay posters just 'cause they’re gay.
And I’m the one who’s over-sensitive?
Your compliments would have carried a lot more weight if they hadn’t been invariably preceded by insults. And hey, when I insult someone, at least I have the conviction to stand by the insult, and not try to weasel out of it with some hokey, “but we’re all friends here, really, even if I did call you an overweight self-hating fag yesterday” schtick. You want to complain about people lacking convictions, start with yourself.
You are under a false impression. We are not friends, or anything close to that. That will never happen. Ever. But our mutual dislike doesn’t make you some cardboard monster. It’s sad that you think that any comment that doesn’t contain total loathing is somehow insincere. I don’t understand why you think trying to see you as a person with both good and bad traits is “weaseling.” But that’s your problem, and I’m not making it mine.
Okay, that was just stupid. I’ve posted more than one insult in the heat of the moment that I’ve later retracted. Like I’m doing right now, f’rinstance. I certainly wouldn’t do that if I thought it were a poor reflection on my own character, and I’ve obviously got no business acting like it relfects poorly on anyone else when they do the same.
I swear, this has turned from Judge Greer and his church to “Is there a ‘Gay Hivemind?’”
Not all Christians have like beliefs and not all gay people have like beliefs and not even all purple and green striped garden gnomes would have like beliefs, were they sentient.
No problem. Surely you’re referring to this bit:
Now tell us, how does a “god” force compliance?
Seriously, gobear. When are you going to fucking stop already? Is someone hacking into your account and posting stuff under your name, or do you really have such weak short-term memory that you can’t remember posting this:
How long did that last? It was less than an hour before you tried to sneak in a rebuttal, and then less than a day before you’re back to your same old hypocritical crap I quoted above.
What is it going to take? I can’t try and take the high ground, state my opinion, and wish you luck, because you’ll immediately start a thread calling me out by name for being some hyper-sensitive PC Christian making niggling remarks about your word usage. I can’t ignore you, or else you’ll make repeated pot shots at me by name and even try to dismiss another poster because of his relation to me. And I’m not allowed to call you on it without everyone shouting “sissyfight!” and getting accused of ganging up on you and having to listen to you just lie about me.
So I’ll make the same mistake I’ve made before, and assume that there was a kernel of sincerity underneath all your bullshit. Here are some tips to help you be the person you know you can be:
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If you’re going to constantly whine about how people use your homosexuality “as a weapon against you,” then don’t do it yourself. That’s what gets you called a hypocrite. Learn how to disagree with someone without making it all about his sexual orientation or your sexual orientation. You know, like calling someone a “self-loathing closet case,” or “they’re the gay versions of so-and-so.”
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Don’t make post after post calling me out and talking shit about me, and then when you get called on it, lie and say you’re going to back off, and then act like you got double-teamed out of nowhere by some angry young man with an inexplicable animosity towards you. That’s what gets you called a martyr.
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Don’t moan that “Compliments are wasted, ditto apologies” until you’ve actually tried it. Until you’ve even once made a genuine, sincere apology. About the words and ideas expressed on the message board, not about the poster himself. Saying someone’s hot and offering virtual blow-jobs to strangers on the internet is not an apology. There was a time that I accepted it as such, because I thought that was the best I was ever going to get and that you were at least trying to defuse the situation. But it didn’t take long to see that you don’t regret for one second anything that you’ve ever said or anyone that you’ve ever offended, because if you did you’d make a genuine effort to stop offending them. Which makes it impossible to take all your crap about crushes and BJ’s and such as good-natured attempts to make peace, but instead as nothing more than creepy and sleazy.
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If you say that you put value in standing up for one’s convictions, then actually try doing it. Either say your piece and stand behind it, or shut the fuck up. Don’t say you’re going to stop hitting back, and then keep taking pot shots. Don’t say that you’re going to back off, and then try to sneak in one last rebuttal, hoping that it’ll sound original as long as you don’t quote the poster directly. Don’t keep pushing someone’s buttons and then when he responds, act like it came out of nowhere and try to dismiss him as nothing more than an angry young man with a lack of conviction.
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If you are still going to insist on sneaking in a rebuttal to get in the last word, don’t twist the point of what the original poster was saying.
Which conveniently leaves out the part about “personal beliefs” that I emphasized, to make it sound as if you’re doing The Board’s Work and anyone who disagrees with you is an unthinking simpleton. Your personal belief that God doesn’t exist is no more or less valid or provable than my personal belief that He does. My belief does no harm, just as your belief itself does no harm. It is the definition of faith that it can’t be proven or disproven. If you do have definitive proof, then you need to take it out on the road and stop spending so much time trying to be Queen Bitch of a message board.
These boards don’t exist for you to insult people; they exist to educate and inform, and to debate issues that are worth debating. Like whether creationism has any scientific basis, whether the church has any place in politics or vice versa, or whether the same civil rights should be extended to all people. Which are all issues that you and I agree on, as well as a significant majority of the other posters on this board. Which means that stating your opinion on any of those issues doesn’t get you the attention you need. Going onto the SDMB and saying that you believe creationism is bunk, is like going into a frat house and saying that you enjoy displays of latent homosexuality. It’s preaching to the choir. So you have to always word it in the most inflammatory “Christianity is about HATE! HAAAAAATE!!!” way possible, derailing thread after thread, and spending post after post clarifying what you “really” meant.
How many people do you have to offend before it sinks in that maybe the problem isn’t with them? Is Garfield226 also dating me, otherwise in cahoots with me, or dealing with issues about his or her orientation? Do you have a macro for “that’s not what I meant I don’t hate you I didn’t mean all Christians like Polycarp for example he’s okay”?
Is any of this sinking in? At all? Is it worth my time to keep trying to explain any of this to you, or are you just going to keep trash-talking me and making me out to be the bad guy?
He doesn’t unless you believe he exists and can do something. Belief, whether it is hope for reward or fear of punishment, can be a powerful motivation. Indirectly, many civil laws could probably be traced back to some ancient religious edict (just a theory of mine).
So you’re saying that A. I wished you luck and then B. started a thread attacking you. Look at the “wish you luck” post, dated March 29, then look at the thread you linked to, dated March 19, 10 days earlier. This is the sort of crap that pisses me off, deliberately lying and accusing me of shit I have not done and putting words in my mouth I never said, as in “Christianity is about HATE! HAAAAAATE!!!” Take the log out of your eye before you bitch about the splinter in mine.
Post one factually incorrect post I made about you. And then explain the post above, where you lied about me. I stand behind what I say, but I’ll be damned if I’ll stand behind what you attribute to me.
And if you were black I’d have said they are the sepia JC and JD, it’s just a descriptor, but point taken. I shall try to remember not to refer to gayness in reference to you again. If I forget, remind me.
What’s this “calling out” nonsense? You got referred to in the third person becaue your posts have been directed at me and were directly relevant to what was being discussed. I was backing off until Miller said something to Homebrew which I read as directed at me. Contrary to what you keep saying, I am nobody’s motherfucking martyr and if I feel attacked, I will respond.
I made maybe one BJ reference because I thought joking was allowed and you weren’t taking this all that seriously. My error.
I didn’t dismiss you as a person who lacks conviction, I said that was a reason why I (used to) admire you. Be assured any crushing is thoroughly extinguished.
Se, this is a problem. If I used your name, you accuse me of “calling you out.” If I don’t use your name, you accuse me of "sneaking in a rebuttal. And if I ignore you you think me a coward. I have no option open that you won’t complain about.
And what was that you were saying about bringing up orientation?
Check the name of this forum. Insults aren’t compulsory, but they are certainly allowed.
But this is the heart of the problem we have. Who made you the arbiter of what is worth discussing on this board? Who made you the IMDB Topic Censor? Every belief is someone’s personal belief; if we say “personal beliefs are off limits,” that pretty much kills discussion on this board because every thread is going to offend someone.
Let’s say I post a thread on the nonexistence of the soul, citing neurological evidence to demonstrate that the mind is a product of the activity of the brain and cannot survive the brain’s death. Thus there is no personal survival after death. That cuts right to the heart of the security beliefs of a lot of people. Am I forbidden to post that because it contradicts your cherished beliefs? Who made you the authority? Who says that your belief is more sacred and unimpeachable than creationism?
Mopre to the point, why do read any post critical of religion as a personal attack? You’re not that important! You persist in taking every. single. comment. I make about religion as an arrow aimed at you, Sol Grundy.It’s not all about you and your beliefs and silencing words that offend your sensibilities. If you don’t want to read what I say, then put me on your Ignore List.
And if you think I’m too critical of religion, I implore you never to read H. L. Mencken or listen to Bill Maher or George Carlin. I don’t think your blood pressure will take it.
And didn’t you complain that I was attributing motives to you?
Everybody offends someone on this boards, so that’s not persuasive. And frankly, I’m honored that I offend some people (not talking about you). If Duffer, for example, ever approved of a post of mine I’d be worried. (and no, I’m not “calling him out.”)
And again you put words in my mouth; why should I have to keep denying something I never said! You make this shit up, I deny it, and then you call me a hypocrite for defending myself! It’s infuriating.
Now get this straight. I do not hate Christians. I really dislike some of them, but am indifferent to them overall. This does not mean that theistic belief is somehow immune from criticism.
And if I say that you’re not a bad guy, you get to call me an insincere hypocrite as you have already done several times. You don’t leave me any options for reconciliation.
Oh, man, that has got to be the most nakedly hypocritical post I’ve ever seen on the boards. You didn’t even look at the links, did you? 'Cause if you had, you might have noticed that the first one is dated March fucking 12th, and, even better, wasn’t written by you. Nice job, dipshit. That gurgling sound you hear is the last of your credibility dribbling down the drain.
Crap, I thought he was referring to my post wishing him luck on p. 5 of this thread, and I didn’t click the link. You are 100 percent right.
Fuck, fuck, fuckity fuck fuck fuck.
OK, that was bad, and I do in fact owe **Sol ** an apology for royally fucking that up. He did not lie in that instance, and I am a retard. I totally retract that post.
Dude. What? On my machine, it shows my post as March 12th, and yours was March 29th. I’m not asking in order to start any “let’s dig through each other’s posting history” nonsense, although if that turns you on you’re welcome to do it. I don’t personally care to do that; I only provided links to demonstrate that this wasn’t just some random attack out of nowhere.
If you want to niggle over details like that, you could point out that I used hyperbole and said “immediately” when your post was in fact 10 days later. Or, as you do above, point out that I paraphrased your “Christianity is about hate, not love” quote (which you did say), to show how it sounds to Christians when you drop these bombs in the middle of a thread. If that makes me a “liar,” then can you not see how your implying that I don’t stand by my convictions makes you a “liar?”
Look, I had a point-by-point response ready, but it seems like a waste of time. I will definitely post a response to each one of your points if you want; don’t accuse me of weaseling out or backing down or ignoring you. But I’d really rather just acknowledge that I did read your entire post, and that I don’t agree with a lick of it. And that that doesn’t really matter, because when you get two stubborn people, the “you said!” “no YOU said!” can back and forth indefinitely.
I’m frankly not interested in a reconciliation, as I don’t see what’s there worth reconciling. The reason I have no qualms about saying “fuck you,” but have to preface “I don’t like to be rude” before saying that I want nothing more to do with you, is because that really is the worst thing I can say about some stranger on a message board, that they have nothing to say that’s worth listening to. I’ve already given up, several times over. All I want is for it to stop already. Part of that is to stop letting you push my buttons, which I’ve tried and will continue to do. The other part is for you to just stop pushing them.
<clears throat>
Ah, yes, the thread topic…
this is for Polycarp and Siege – has either of you ever read Karen Armstrong? I am reading her * A History of God* right now and it is fascinating.
I am wondering if we (as a people) are not at a certain crossroads right now re: religion and God.
Armstrong’s premise is that a people change their way of viewing God to suit the needs of their times. I cannot do justice to her thesis, w/o writing one of my own, but essentially, she says, and I quote:
"Depite its otherworldliness, religion is highly pragmatic. We shall see that it is far more important for a particular idea of God to work than for it to be logically or scientifically sound. As soon as it ceases to be effective, it will be changed-sometimes for something radicallly different."
She developes this theme and traces the “notion” of God thru the big 3–Judaism, Christianity and Islam. She also discusses Hinduism and Buddhism.
It is pertinent to this thread b/c of the above discourse and also b/c of the factions I have watched develope over my lifetime–as evidenced by the intolerance shown by many on the religious right. Thoughts?