Guys and Prostitutes ...

In My Humble Opinion
21

“”""“Bumbazine is right; men have to pay for sex in one way or another anyway. Why pay for flowers, expensive meals, etc. AND spend an entire evening on a date when you can spend less money and get a sure thing in less time? If all you want is sex, hiring a prostitute is not only faster and cheaper, but it’s also more honest.”""""’

Nothing is worse for men than synthesizing the personality required for sex, one may as well shoot themselves IMO. Paying money is one thing; paying with logical inconsistancy and the very essense of truth in reality is unreal, that’s like who you are! I’m amazed that so many people do it! Like, astonished beyond belief, watching people cite one hypocrisy after another and watching the champion recieve validation for it. I’d rather drop a hundred-thou on one good night every twenty years or so, then knowing that I recieved sex at the expense of at least two other beings; based on abusing the fundamentals of logic and human determinism.

-Justhink

22

IIRC, according to WHO studies (will dig up cite if anyone wishes to challenge) the HIV rate among New York escort girls (not crack whores, mind you) was 0%. Much lower than that in the general sex-for-free bar-hopping population, because these girs were educated and demanded 100% condom use and got checkups (which average NY sluts of both genders do NOT, IMHO). Of course that’s NYC, and the rates of STDs in say Manila are much different. But still, let’s not make generalizations about sex worker being disease-pools.

For men who consider sex an exclusively intimate act, buying it is ridiculous. For men who can reduce it to hedonistic, impersonal recreation–and there’s nothing wrong with that–NOT being able to legally buy it is equally ridiculous. Similarly for women (or men) who can emotionally detatch themselves from it enough to sell it, criminalizing their trade must seem hypocritical in a society that uses sex to sell everything else.

Personally I think that many men resist it simply because as it exist now (in the US) it’s illegal, stigmatized, and way overpriced. AFAIK, getting a sexy young woman escort in say, Los Angeles, costs like $300 plus tip. That’s half a month’s rent. For that kind of money you can buy two VCRs and a shitload of rented porn.

In Bangkok, and other Asian/South American/Caribbean cities, however, you can get a slinky, friendly 19-year old for $25-$35, without fear of arrest or much stigma (the locals created the industry and are its majority patrons). In exchange you roll the dice with an estimated HIV infection rate between 2% (Taiwan, where it’s legal) to 25% (Cambodia). Under these conditions, many men who resisted solicitation for the above reasons will usually try it eventually.

From what I’ve seen, the *real * (unspoken) risk isn’t HIV (I don’t know anyone who’s caught it among my friends in Bangkok) but of liking it so much that the part of you that preferred mature, intimacy-based sex gets trodden over by your shallow, juvenile, drive towards screwing younger and younger girls that fulfill a static aesthetic ideal as you get older and older. Certainly in Bangkok this happens all the time. Foreign men move here, think they’re in heaven (and hey, part of them IS), become “lifers”, and get fat. They lose their ability to deal with women who they DON’T pay for sex, or women their own age. It’s like a drug.

But just as I support legalizing most drugs, and the continued legal status of cigarettes, booze, bacon cheeseburgers, and fast cars, I suppot legal status for prostitutes. They deserve legal protection, tax obligations, and the opportunity to form unions. And frankly it’s probably better for men to get hooked on screwing teens for cash than marrying and then abandoning their families later, or molesting their neices when the repressed urges get too strong, or having affairs with secretaries or married women. Sex for money isn’t for everyone, but it can go a long way in making our relationship with sex–as individuals and as a culture–more honest. And I always support that.

23

It’s all a matter of environment. Whereas I can’t imagine an American in America bragging “Hey, I just dropped $400 for the most amazing Class A misdemeanor!” I can tell you that in Bangkok it’s quite different. Because buying sex is cheap, good (physically), and acceptable, it becomes like any other service or product. Men will say “I had the most amazing night with this new girl at from that one go-go bar, you should try her” the same way they would say “Dude, there’s a huge sale on housewares at that one department store–hurry!” The practice itself is not mysogynstic (although the individual men very often can be)–it’s just that they have come to regard sex as a commodity, with the usual amoral consumer evaluation that is used for buying anything else in a legal free market.

Of course, no one brags that he “scored” either. There’s nothing studly or proud or arrogant about sexuality in such an environment, which I think is a strange upside to legal, destigmatized sex trade. No one fights over women. No one acts out his sexual frustration. In fact, sleazy bars in Bangkok don’t even have bouncers because men–even drunken scoundrels, and lo, they are drunken scoundrels–who are assured of getting sex have lost 90% of their motive to pick dumb fights. Weird but true. Guys who live to fight in London or Dublin bars come here, get laid, and calm down. (Temporarily)

24

““If I were a guy I’d die before admitting that I had to pay for sex.””

Because you’d die if you realized that women charge for it, and men don’t? Any guy who is on that road is a player. Those counter-intelligence routines need to be run in order to aquire sex, and that is only a fraction of what men have to pay for sex. This exact conversation that you are having requires you to personally look at aspects of reality that are unsettlingly true (depending on the beliefs one has adapted over the course of ones life). This means, that males who speak this opinion will invariably be attractive to you as ‘nice guys’, the opposite as mean, ignorant, arrogant or incoherent. The silent ones are always selected as conversational rubbish (unless they dress funny and take on the essence of a spectre, conversationally written into the theme of the social stratum). For it to be otherwise, you might actually have to look at psyhological systems that negate your entire conception of being.

““So what’s the deal? Is it “acceptable” in the male culture to pay to get laid as long as she’s hot? Or is this something that, in the opinion of most men, only the truly desperate/ugly/stupid do?””

Players need the counter-intelligence routines to hold the cohesiveness of the reality used to aquire the woman in the first place, in place for life, in order to ward off rising existential tensions (unless they drop them), and function in society to the degree that they were before. A male who criticises males for this is basically protecting his insight from wandering too far into himself (we call them players); those questions and answers require a phenomenal amount of resource (the kind which has been diverted for a lifetime, opting towards physical action that validates itself in ways that negate their meaning for existence.). People have commited suicide because of behaviors they have done. The thought that very young males already aknowledged this rather abstract acausal behavior as determinism in murder, can be a soul-shattering wake-up call. It is readily obvious to males who have it explained to them, how logical prostitution is; considering the other form of payment is to siphon their integrity of non-hypocrisy (a tool critical to the axiomic discernment of truth and moral validation).

Once reality validates their fitness however, they’re basically doomed for life to repeat it - and actually begin to aquire the emergent properties of charisma, charm, humility, consistancy, sincerity, personality and a sense of humor from which to divert these hypocrisies and continue the process of soul-leeching for existence. The entire ensuing family system is a joke - the conversations, the struggles, the opinions reached over-time, the individual evolutions of judgements and epiphanies, systematically catalogued to banality as all being false. It’s amazing to me that these people still exist, and that they represent the vast majority of the population sector in America.

Then again, America is a counter-intelligent society with a counter-intelligent constitution, run by counter-intelligence… no suprise that this be the norm over here.

-Justhink

25

Err…you’re supposed to tip prostitutes?:confused: Aren’t you paying them at the first place???

26

“”""“Of course, no one brags that he “scored” either. There’s nothing studly or proud or arrogant about sexuality in such an environment, which I think is a strange upside to legal, destigmatized sex trade. No one fights over women. No one acts out his sexual frustration. In fact, sleazy bars in Bangkok don’t even have bouncers because men–even drunken scoundrels, and lo, they are drunken scoundrels–who are assured of getting sex have lost 90% of their motive to pick dumb fights. Weird but true. Guys who live to fight in London or Dublin bars come here, get laid, and calm down. (Temporarily)”"""""

This hypocrisy is necessary and intricately woven into the capitolistic imperialism of America. It is also necessary for countries that have differing laws to fail, as evidence that our way is best. I’m suprized that Taiwan is allowed to have a 2% HIV rate; sounds like a ‘mafia’ definately needs to be exported over there from America! Peope are talking about $300.00 escorts (house fee) and the tips required to ‘get a little further’.
In America, I was under the impression that a good call girl was at least in the 10K range, (obviously non-HIV).

-Justhink

27

“”""“Of course, no one brags that he “scored” either. There’s nothing studly or proud or arrogant about sexuality in such an environment, which I think is a strange upside to legal, destigmatized sex trade. No one fights over women. No one acts out his sexual frustration. In fact, sleazy bars in Bangkok don’t even have bouncers because men–even drunken scoundrels, and lo, they are drunken scoundrels–who are assured of getting sex have lost 90% of their motive to pick dumb fights. Weird but true. Guys who live to fight in London or Dublin bars come here, get laid, and calm down. (Temporarily)”"""""

This hypocrisy is necessary and intricately woven into the capitolistic imperialism of America. It is also necessary for countries that have differing laws to fail, as evidence that our way is best. I’m suprized that Taiwan is allowed to have a 2% HIV rate; sounds like a ‘mafia’ definately needs to be exported over there from America! Peope are talking about $300.00 escorts (house fee) and the tips required to ‘get a little further’.
In America, I was under the impression that a good call girl was at least in the 10K range, (obviously non-HIV).
Again: “For men who consider sex an exclusively intimate act”

Without being a nit-pick on the wording; these people exist only as fodder for counter-intelligence societies. Their entire life-long belief systems drafted by some nationalistic a$$.

-Justhink

28

First post of this aparent double post was incomplete and shouldn’t have been sent. No clue how it did send, as I hadn’t sent it yet! shrug

-Justhink

29

Sure, why not? You tip the pizza guy, the masseuse, the fellow who mows your lawn, above and beyond their price for services. I once asked a guy how much for a shoe shine and he said “three dollars plus tip.” In America anyway. The rest of the world (Asia) doesn’t even tip waiters.

30

Justhink, I heard a theory that circumcission is done to implant a microchip which controls men and specially their penis so that they may be diverted from criticising the capitolistic and imperialistic practices of the government. I also heard a tinfoil penis sheath works pretty well in preventing this.

31

To prattle on a bit more…
It would be interesting to dredge up analysis and statistics of of the advertising market demographics in Taiwan.
““criminalizing their trade must seem hypocritical in a society that uses sex to sell everything else.””

To understand why this is not hypocritical, is to understand America. The machinery that fundamentally attacks legalization of prostitution is the capitolistic arm of the advertising industry.
For an (almost autocratic) plutocracy; advertising is the Bible.
The number one fruit being dangled over the public results from sexual frustration (biological) and witholding the psychological tools and education to combat this. The medium loses its teeth; and a renewable resource recieves a severe depreciation of value as such; this would drastically undermine the authority of advertising to brush against the sexual tension that has been so carefully engineered in the U.S., so that advertising keeps its imperial viability.

You can call me crazy sailor, but I assure you that legalized prostitution in America damages a system of addiction used to indenture revenue (like tobacco); only much closer to the heart of what America has relied so heavily upon for almost this last century. When push comes to shove; there isn’t a corperate bone in this country that fundamentally realizes that legalized prostitution will ‘needlessly’ remove a wonderfully simple system of capital indenture. These types of functions only serve as taxes.
Gambling has the same exact effect; it is a state tax.

-Justhink

32

Yes, I know that there’s a tip-culture in the US, but when you eat at the restaurant, or order a pizza, you’re paying the owner, not the waiter/pizza boy, so it makes some sense to add a tip. But in the case of a call-girl, you’re paying her directly. If she thinks she don’t earn enough money, she can raise the price. So it makes absolutely no sense to add a tip.

33

Well, like I said, you tip the lawn-mowing boy and the freelance masseuse, even though their services are independently owned and operated. There’s the standard price and then a possible tip.

Look, I don’t know if you tip them or not, I was just saying.

34

clairobscur:

In the case of a freelance prostitute, you have a point. Many call-girls and escots, however, work for a service that hires them and handles scheduling, transport, etc. (at least in Japan, US may be different, owing to the iffier legal status of the business), and pays the woman a percentage, or possibly a fixed salary. In this case, a tip would make sense.

35

My 2 cents-worth.

I used to have a neighbor whom was an ‘escort’. No, not anyone I had sex with, but someone I chatted with fairly often, while she lived there.

She charged US$250-300 an hour, with price breaks on multi-hour deals, was clean, had children, and generally lived like any suburban single mom. Except that her trade was her body and personality. She worked independantly, had a stable of regular customers (never called them ‘Johns’, that I can recall), went on occasional over-nighters (US$3000), always used hotels as her venue.

What she basically provided was a GFE: A Girlfriend Experience. She’d talk with them, get to know them, go to dinner or a show, and help them live a fantasy of having someone sexy being really interested in them. She also gave discretion, and would, as others have said, “Go away”. Not all of her clients were male.
In exchange, she got money, a lot of sex (most of which she said was pretty good), and had access to some of the perks of a lifestyle she’d otherwise not ever see.

According to the best info I have, most independant US escorts charge around US$250 - 400 per hour, giving price breaks on multi-hour packages, and sometimes even ‘putting it on sale’ to break open new markets, or drum up a little extra business. They also tend to give price breaks, or at least fixed prices, for regulars. Prices do go up, apparantly. It’s all about establishing that customer loyalty, while keepin the new ones coming in! Tips are not required by most independents, but they get gifts from many regulars: Champagne, flowers, lingere, jewelry, and the like. Usually quite modest, actually: US$50, or there-abouts.

Not all escorts are inexpensive, to be sure: My neighbor told me of a friend of hers that was charging US$12000 per day, two day minimum, on the DC-London-Paris circuit. Dunno if that’s true, but if so, all I can say is; I hope she left her customers in boneless ecstacy, 'cause that’s one hell of a price! She made it sound plausable, at least.

I have little or no information about agencies, and have no idea how they’re run, or what the economic routine is with them. I never got around to asking her.

Now, lest you think this is some great little world, and rush right out to join in the fun, there’s the ugly down-side: STDs, while not too common, were a constant fear. Getting abused by a new client was a fear (most escorts, as I understand, use referrals and screening proceses to establish some initial level of trust), getting arrested was a fear, and the ability to establish long-term relationships with a partner was quite difficult. Either they had to find someone whom didn’t mind (fat chance!), or they had to hide it (my neighbor’s personal choice), or find someone whom was in the business also. Yes, many are lesbian, or bi, and are simply screwing because it’s a living. Many are seriously flakey, adicted to various drugs, and have poor money-management skills, and must either finding a sugar-daddy, a regular job, or slide down the ranks into the street-walker levels as they lose their looks.

Many are in abusive relationships, and a large portion crash-n-burn before age 35.

Most, at this level, get a job or get married. Divorce is almost guaranteed, the first time they marry, as they’ve not very good at establishing long-term relationships.

Not a life many would choose, IMO.

36

That’s right, all women are whores, and only have sex for the free merchandice :rolleyes: .

It scares me you have people agreeing with you.
(Not that I’m saying paying for sex doesn’t take other forms, like women who demand expensive presents, but …“ANY guy”? As a generalisation?! I think you are hanging out with the wrong women.)

37

This is more what I expected when I made my original post. (No, I wasn’t trolling.) I didn’t have the time or inclination to write a novella to try to explain then, and I don’t have the time now, but I’ll try to elaborate a little.

My post was actually a sarcastic response to this statement:

As a younger man I on many occasions had to suffer through some braggart expounding on how he was getting “free sex” and “never had to pay for it”, knowing full well the elaborate machinations he had gone through to get to that point. He was paying for it, but was pretending to himself that he wasn’t, and trying to brow beat the rest of us into validating his macho view of himself. Incidently I didn’t make up the conversation I quoted in my first post, I actually witnessed it.

The sad fact is that our American culture has perverted the pure clean joy of sex into a commodity, a lever, and, in some cases, a weapon. And even more sadly, many women buy into that mindset without realizing it. They expect to “get something for it” and “never give it away for free.” (I’m not making these quotes up either.)

No I don’t think * “all women are whores, and only have sex for the free merchandice”.* but I do think that most American women are conditioned to think that they are due something over and above the pure physical pleasure ther receive from the act itself. I think that if you take an honest look at “the American way”, you’ll see what I mean. And I think that the people who are agreeing with me are just expressing their own frustration with the “sex sells” aspects of our ‘culture’, as was I.

If I really believed that all women are whores I wouldn’t have married one, although it took me an inordinately long time to find one willing to be a full partner. (And keep her ‘Mommy’ tendencies in check in relation to me.)

Tyhere’s a whole lot more I could say on this subject, but I don’t have the time. Anyway, I hope this clears thing up a little. I do apologize for making an unwarrented generalization in haste, (but that’s all I apologize for). I will try to be more precise in future. And to use my :rolleyes: where appropriate.

38

Tain’t jest 'Merica, my friend. American attitudes about sex initially came with them, from some other place…

Now, true, they’ve gotten possibley worse, or maybe parts of the rest of the world have grown-up faster, but we’re not the only sexually repressed society. Just the noisiest about it.

39

“”"""“Dude, you bought her a car!?!”

Yeah, but now I get all the free sex I can handle."""""""

The more obvious point that you’re missing is the part;

"dude I just bought myself a car…<blah, blah>…(tons of worthless personality capitol being exchanged for sex)…<blah, blah>…

…Nah, I never pay for sex you dope!"

Women do not give out sex for free, end of story. It’s always stupid stuff that they exchange for it, and they sound like raving lunatics for suggesting otherwise.

-Justhink

40

You’re right - I give out sex for love and companionship. I give out sex to someone I want to spend a long time with. I have friends who give out sex in order to procure an enjoyable night after clubbing. Men don’t give out sex for free either, by that sort of rationale.

I’m sorry, did I just vomit on you? Oops.