Douchebags tend to not care what other people think. They also generally don’t have good morals so lying to get a quick lay ain’t much of a stretch for them.
While not all “bold guys” are douches I suspect more douches percentage wise are in the “bold guy” category than they are in the “shy guy” category. And I’d have a hard time believing its actually the opposite of that (which the woman don’t ask filter seems to assume ).
Yeah, youre talking to the ones you’ve already identified as attractive. It’s not a small thing that your visual orientation allows to see strangers as “do able” just by sight. Attracting attention is more than half the battle right there, and men have to work a lot harder than women do in that regard.
Women who ask out men face their own stigma. Guys have told me that they assume theyre desperate or insecure or are trying too hard to be the man. Should these attitudes prevent women from taking the initiative? No of course not. But it’s not as easy as you’re making it sound. Men have their preferences just like women do.
Women have a bias against shot gunners. This is why we make fun of men who use bad one liners, but praise men who actually start up conversations before they pop the ‘wanna go out with me?’ question.
They are more likely to be either emotionally callous, obsessive or outright predators.
I do. I never said anything about “pure hearts.” And your second idea simply makes no sense; how would being hesitant in asking women out even work for convincing women to sleep with you?
That’s pretty much all women.
I won’t deny that this BS attitude exists, but IME it’s rare these days and getting rarer. And it is just as easy for a woman to do it as a man. Risking rejection is hard for either sex.
A guy who is ‘shy guy’ in one set of conditions could just as easily be a ‘bold guy’ in another set of conditions. The idea that we are dealing with two distinct species of man is laughable. Every guy in this thread has probably initiated a date once in their life, and I have no reason to think douchbaggery increases with one’s willingness to do such a common activity.
But let’s assume that ‘first movers’ are more likely to be douchbags than non first movers. Isn’t it also fair to say that first movers are more likely to be interested in her (which gets back to the OP)? Because within that first mover cohort, there are good guys (perhaps even men who uare sometimes ‘shy’) that are truly impressed by her and wish to get to know her better, so much so that they are willing to risk embarrassment to do so. Why shouldn’t she be biased towards those guys?
That’s because you’re attacking a strawman. A propensity to do this is something you and sven have in common.
I think women are lightening up about asking guys out too. Some guys might not believe this because they’re not getting assailed with date requests every night, but that doesn’t mean women are as passive as their mothers and grandmothers were. Things are changing as our gender roles become less rigid.
A guy I’m dating right now, I met on okcupid. He was first to reach out to me and ask me out, but he confessed that he would have not talked to me if he’d come across me in real life first. Why? Because, he said, his assumption would have been that I was outside his league. Okay whatever. So I asked him what would have happened if I had approached him. He told me he wouldnt have liked that either because that’s not how it is supposed to be. Right. He’s not a bad guy at all, but he’s proof that even so-called shy guys are not for true equality when it comes to these things. Even an attractive woman who is willing to take the initiative has to be mindful before she acts.
Read the OP. The idea is that a women who approaches a man increases her chance of snaring a guy who is not committed to a relationship but rather will use her for sex until he’s found someone he’s really interested in.
I don’t believe in this any more than I believe the douchbaggery theory you advocate, mind you. Both sound like things someone might tell themselves to make their behaviors and preferences seem more rational than they are.
He’s proof of nothing other than SOME shy guys are stupid and also buy into outdated social mores, but I guarantee you by and large attractive women approaching shy guys are NOT going to get rejected. Besides which, rejection is something women can choose to OPT IN to risk, and something that men automatically have to sign up for or die alone.
advantage: women
Did you really think I thought there were only two classes? Its called a spectrum. And there is thing called statistics and probabilties.
Eh, to be fair that’s also a broad a priori presumption. SOME who tend to be more withdrawn/awkward in the first place may also stumble at how to respond positively to being on the receiving end of the approach, and from the POV of the woman making the first move that would look, if not so much as rejection, at least as “fail” (or, if he makes her wait too long while he gets his wits together).
There is just no single strategy to take the stress out of the process. Man moves first/woman moves first/bilaterality, shotgunning/focusing, rapport first then come-on/come-on first then rapport, cold-approach strangers/fish in your established social circle, fast-first-impression-judgement/let-grow-on-you, it all works for some people and not for others but it ALL requires someone to risk experiencing or causing some discomfort.
Well, that is basis of this thread, and as I understand part of the OP proposition is that this is tolerable because other parts of the relationship dynamic will balance it out ITLR.
JRD
(BTW, the “die alone” thing that keeps getting brought up tends to put me off in the discussion. A bit too damn dire, don’t you all think? Really. I’m 50 and currently unattached and I’m more annoyed about not getting the double-occupancy rate on the tour than worried about “dying alone”)
If you don’t want to die alone, maybe you ought to give some thought to what you bring to the table.
I still don’t get this idea that men who approach women are all worthless douchebags. If a single guy is not ready for a long-term partner, what’s wrong with him looking for a short term partner? Sex is fun! It may be more fun with a loving, committed partner, but that doesn’t mean it’s not also sometimes fun with a hot, willing, fully-consenting chick you picked up at a bar. I don’t think it’s somehow “better” or less douchey to go home and jack off. It’s just like I don’t think a single women who chooses to have sex with an uncommitted partner (or two or three) is a “slut”. You’re single! Your sexuality is promised to nobody in particular! If having sex with other people is fun for you, go for it!
I’ve dated “players.” In all cases, they’ve been pretty upfront about their intentions. The last thing a PUA wants is a girl going ga-ga over them and spilling all kinds drama all over him. They want to be in and out, with everyone having a good time and nobody getting hurt. They don’t want to see women crying or calling them constantly or getting wacky, so generally they say “Look, I’m not ready for a long-term relationship yet. I’m going to keep my options open. But if you are okay with that, I’m think the two of us could have a lot of fun for a while.” My previous partner was one of these, and frankly it worked out swimmingly for both of us.
But that’s not even most cases. I think in a lot of cases, guys really hoping to meet a life partner. You can’t tell by looking at someone if they are going to be your life partner, so what’s left? Talking to a lot of people and seeing which one sticks seems like a reasonable plan to me- not predatory or douchey at all. And if you end up having a good time sexually with some of the ones who didn’t stick, what’s wrong with that?
Now, douche bags are out there, for sure. But in my experience, when a woman gets hurt by a douchebag it’s because she saw exactly what was there, and chose to ignore it or thought she could change him or just plain committed her heart way too quickly. Women aren’t dumb. They can tell who treats them well and who gives them booty calls. But I think a lot of women aren’t taught how to set up boundaries with themselves and with their partners that weed the baddies out- a lot of women are just so into being in a relationship, any relationships, that they close their eyes and pray whenever they see a red flag rather than going out and finding someone better.
That’s because you’re attacking a strawman. A propensity to do this is something you and you with the face have in common.
Well since it’s male behavior we’re discussing, that is at least under my own control. You may choose to interact romantically (& etc) only with guys who make the first move, as may various other women.
I’m quite happy with the way my life has turned out as a guy boycotting that particular convention. See you around!
Unless the timing is bad, I have problems asking guys whom I find an attractive.
I mean of course that I have no problems asking out guys whom I find attractive.
I don’t ask out men. Social convention says it is their job. Why bother? If they want to ask me out, they will. No use risking the appearance of being desperate.
Parachuting into an already enflamed thread. Not sure if I can add anything useful, but here’s my take of it.
There are a few issues and misunderstandings, both in this thread and in society in general. Firstly, it’s about what each sex if after. The old trope about guys just wanting sex and women wanting meaningful relationships has really nothing to do with reality, especially when one removes looks past the norms that society gives us. I’ll promise you that anybody with a libido would love a fantastic one-time romp in the sack no matter how ‘serious’ their intentions are, given that they’re introduced to the concept in the right way. It’s about insecurity, where immature women fear being labeled as ‘sluts’ (by other immature women) and guys simply crave the attention denied them by the societal model.
If I may digress on that last sentence, I’d like to point out that a lot of flirting really has nothing to do with either relationships or sex. The current patriarchal system, while doing neither sex any favors in the long run (I’ll get to that) has the rather poor side effect of damaging most guy’s egos because they can’t get any attention from the opposite sex, causing them to feel like a collective of beta males. I’m not going to sort people into alfas and betas because we’re not pack animals but communal animals, but the feeling of not being let in to the gene pool is still very real. While this system may seem beneficial to women at first as they have less trouble getting attention (even if it isn’t from guys they desire, but that doesn’t really matter because they still get to experience being desired), it does form an unlevel playing field, and guys will adapt.
Some will adapt very poorly, treating women as objects. I say this not including men who resort to violence or rape, because I think there must be far deeper issues involved in the molding of such a person than being shunned by a woman. Some guys will whine and jack off, and some will hopefully mature and see the whole silly game for what it is. I say this myself as somebody who has been through all three stages myself. The whole playing field changes once some of the men begin figuring out how it works. I myself was never terribly shy, but I did take rejection very much to heart. I became callous at first, just chatting up girls left and right and letting statistics do the work for me. I never quite got to the stage of asking “Hey, wanna fuck?” as my pickup-line, but I wasn’t at all very far from it. I never saw women as objects, but on the other hand I simply chose not to give any girl more value in my mind than I had in hers.
With experience I came to realize that the social skills I acquired through years of frustration and rejection gave me an advantage in chatting to girls, who while being the passive party really had far less of an understanding of our interaction than I did. This in turn lead to boredom with the whole scene, as I didn’t feel that any girl I could play like an instrument was even worth taking home. I’m sorry if I come off as an arrogant douche, but the fact is that most women are just as socially inept as most guys are, they just hide it behind the unequal system we live in. While some guys like me don’t get much pleasure from dragging home a girl who’s been played an manipulated from the start as I did at times (and I even always honest about it), some guys do. Women, while initially gaining from this system, become more and more objectified as a group, and many are set at a disadvantage. Compare this to traditional gender roles where a woman initially had the ‘advantage’ of having her future provided for by a husband, but at the same time giving up control over her own life.
And where does this all leave us? We live in a society which enjoys setting different demands and expectations on different people depending on their genders, which mainly serves to split those two groups apart. While it may sound from my post like I revel in the social skills I gained while being shunned, I think I would have gained the same insights far faster in an open and equal society without the emotional pain involved. The system we have is perpetuated by the small group of men who have mastered it, and by women who believe that it is to their advantage.
I’m sure I messed a ton of that up, but that’s my €0.02 anyway
Of all the silly things said in this thread, I think this one takes the cake. If someone doesn’t agree, well, they’re immature and afraid of being labeled a slut or just haven’t been “introduced to the concept in the right way.”
I don’t know what this Scotsman puts on his porridge, but he’s wearing frilly panties under his kilt.