Happy now Clothahump?

[Duke_of_Rat]

@CBEscapee

The difference here is someone other than an American is doing the criticizing. Kinda like blacks can call each other nigger but whites can’t. Non-americans catch all kinds of shit for criticizing the US. It really brings out the worst in you.

Funny, there are posters from Spain, France, the UK, New Zealand, Australia, and I’m sure others who have had no problems flaming the US, it’s Government, it’s military, everything.

I’ve not seen any of them catch nearly the flack you have.

If you have a valid point, people will listen. If you make an honest attempt to debate, people will give you respect.

Notice how that didn’t happen in this thread?

So gringo isn’t a racist term, just a polite nickname for white Americans. Fine. But gringos are hypocrites. See where the stereotype went to racism? Mexicans are lazy rock chunkers. Just a stereotype, or racisim? You decide.

I have friends who carry green cards from Mexico and Germany. The guy from Germany grew up in Mexico and is married to a Mexican national. I have another buddy in Merida. Do a search for Merida and you’ll find a post where I tried to help a poster going to Progresso by asking my buddy in Merida for travel advice. Search for Mexican Polka and you can read where I used to hang out at The Killarney, a Mexican bar, and shoot pool with Mexican nationals. I have absolutely nothing against legal immigrants from any country.

So when you called me a hypocrite, I didn’t particularly like that.

Judging by your list of links, I’d say you have more than a little axe to grind with the current administration. I didn’t know Abramoff was actively shooting illegal aliens. I might remind you of a earlier immigration policy.

My main point was that the tragic event was entirely avoidable. All the man had to do was pursue legal channels and immigrate. That would have spared him his life. No shots would have been fired.

How can that not have been the best way to accomplish his goal? The Mexican nationals I know are not skilled or highly educated, yet getting a green card was no great hurdle for them. I can’t imagine it was too hard, but they make pretty good money here (doing the same jobs I have done) and send money back home. One guy from Zacatecas, Zacatecas met his goal and returned home. It is beautiful there, I’d love to go visit. Another of his buddies was from Juan Aldama, Zacatecas. He still lives here, but I haven’t seen him around much.

Just because I favor legal immigration does not make me a racist. I might point out that my Mexican national friends shunned the illegals, and they were the same race.

So basically, a lot of your argument just does not hold up. That’s the reason you are having a hard time of it.

[Weirddave]

@CBEscapee

Right back at ya!

New Orleans cops beat black man
Amadou Diallo
Haitian Sodomized with broomstick
American citizen gunned down by US Mrines
US Customs Corruption Sure let’s talk. Wait till
11 year old arrested, charged with felony
[U.S. Execution of Mentally Retarded Condemned](U.S. Execution of Mentally Retarded Condemned)
Traficant expelled sentenced
A History of CIA Atrocities
History of U.S. Interventions in Latin America
GOP Superlobbyist Jack Abramoff and His Closest Allies Stay tuned on this one

What the fuck do any of these have to do with the problem of illegal immigration?

[CBEscapee]

@Yeticus Rex

Actually, CB, you need go back to another time when you went to the racist card in this thread.

On post #114, I mentioned a term paper I did a long time ago when I was in college which was provacative (required by my teacher) and I chose to write about Annexing Mexico. CB replied with post #118, pretty much calling me a racist, and then it went downhill from there with post #120, #122, #129, and so on until post #148.

I could have sworn that CB has called me a racist in that thread, but now I do not see that post…I did report it (since it was in Great Debates and I referenced it on post #144 ), so did it get deleted? I can’t tell. Anyways, that’s why my first post here in this thread was that all of us Americans are “racist” (in the eyes of CB)because we want illegal immigration reform.

1.You are playing very loose with the facts again YR. Your link “Who are the real racists” in post #114 accuses Mexico of having racist policies towards immigrants. I hadn’t even participated in the thread at that point. You broached the subject of racism with your accusation.

2. How you can interprete my comment in #118 as calling you a racist is bullshit. I stand by my statement in that post that American policy towards Mexican immigraion has allows been guided by racism. Now I’ll wait why all of the geniuses around here spin that into calling all Americans racist.

[Duke_of_Rat]

@CBEscapee

I stand by my statement in that post that American policy towards Mexican immigraion has allows been guided by racism. Now I’ll wait why all of the geniuses around here spin that into calling all Americans racist.

Why then is it so easy for Mexicans to legally immigrate? And I will take a guess that “allows” should have been “always”, but without my Dick and Jane handy, I can’t be sure.

[CBEscapee]

@Weirddave

What the fuck do any of these have to do with the problem of illegal immigration?

A lot have to do with police abuses against minorities which is a major part of the debate in this thread. What I’ve been hearing about corrupt Mexican police throughout the thread which brought to mind a saying here:

El burro hablando de orejas.

[buttonjockey308]

CBEscapee You’ve lied, misdirected, avoided questions, and issued vague non-sequiturs for two days now. You’ve insulted and, (needlessly I might add) attacked other posters, based on your wildly incorrect assumptions of US policy toward criminals attempting to illegally cross our borders.

Plus, you’re a dickhead.
Piss off.

That is all.

[CBEscapee]

@Duke of Rat

Why then is it so easy for Mexicans to legally immigrate? And I will take a guess that “allows” should have been “always”, but without my Dick and Jane handy, I can’t be sure.

When has it been easy for Mexicans to immigrate? The only time I know of was when the US needed labor during WW2 and started the Bracero Program. And then it was for temporary migration and exploitation and abuses were rampant.

[CBEscapee]

@buttonjockey308

CBEscapee You’ve lied, misdirected, avoided questions, and issued vague non-sequiturs for two days now. You’ve insulted and, (needlessly I might add) attacked other posters, based on your wildly incorrect assumptions of US policy toward criminals attempting to illegally cross our borders.

Plus, you’re a dickhead.
Piss off.

That is all.

Another little bootlicker. You’re a freak.

[Duke_of_Rat]

@CBEscapee

When has it been easy for Mexicans to immigrate? The only time I know of was when the US needed labor during WW2 and started the Bracero Program. And then it was for temporary migration and exploitation and abuses were rampant.

Like I said in my earlier post (that you no doubt ignored, since it didn’t fit in with your closed-minded, preconcieved notions), I know Mexican nationals living in my town who came into the country, legally. If it was that hard, I can’t imagine they would have pursued it (it’s not like this town is a paradise). And they hold the illegal immigrants in contempt. This was due to the fact that the illegals hadn’t taken the proper steps to get a green card, but I never got the impression that it was a Herculean effort to actually get the green card. These guys are mostly oilfield workers, not PhDs.

[CBEscapee]

@Mr Bus Guy

And once again, I think for the third time in this thread, someone will point out to CBE that not everyone 'attacking" him here is American.

Do you ever read these boards, or just come here once in a while to take a dump? because you’d know how wrong that statement was if you did.

All non Americans please raise your hands.

[CBEscapee]

@Duke of Rat

Like I said in my earlier post (that you no doubt ignored, since it didn’t fit in with your closed-minded, preconcieved notions), I know Mexican nationals living in my town who came into the country, legally. If it was that hard, I can’t imagine they would have pursued it (it’s not like this town is a paradise). And they hold the illegal immigrants in contempt. This was due to the fact that the illegals hadn’t taken the proper steps to get a green card, but I never got the impression that it was a Herculean effort to actually get the green card. These guys are mostly oilfield workers, not PhDs.

Give me a break. YOU can’t imagine? You know nothing of the process but YOU can’t imagine. Now that is what I call ignorant.

Here’s a link that details the amount of visas: Summary of Current U.S. Immigration Law

"U.S. Immigration law is complex. Currently, traditional immigrants are allowed entry to the United States under three major categories, each with its own set of “preferences.”

Annually, these three categories include:

Family-Sponsored Immigrants.

Up to 480,000 visas in four preference categories:

unmarried sons and daughters of U.S. citizens
spouses and unmarried children of lawful permanent residents
married sons and daughters of U.S. citizens
brothers and sisters of U.S. citizens

Employment-Based Immigrants.

Up to 140,000 visas in five preference categories, including:

“Priority workers,” including professors and researchers; executives and managers of multinational corporations; etc.
Professionals with advanced degrees
Skilled workers, other professionals, and “other workers”
“Special immigrants,” such as ministers of religion, foreign medical graduates, etc.
Investors

Diversity Immigrants.

Up to 55,000 visas to promote immigration from those countries that are not currently the principal sources of immigration to the United States.

Visas are distributed in six geographic regions:

Africa
Asia
Europe
North America
South America, Central America, and the Caribbean
Oceania"

[Scumpup]

@CBEscapee

See Scumbag’s above post.

That’s Scumpup, cabrona. Given how little else about which you’re correct, perhaps it’s a touch unfair to expect you to get my username right, maybe.

[AFAIKnow]

@CBEscapee

When has it been easy for Mexicans to immigrate? The only time I know of was when the US needed labor during WW2 and started the Bracero Program. And then it was for temporary migration and exploitation and abuses were rampant.

10% of your population lives in the US! Right fucking now. Not 60 years ago. Lets make it easier so we can have a plurality of the Mexican population living here. :rolleyes: 1/5th of our legal immigrant population is from Mexico. Maybe too easy?

[Duke_of_Rat]

@CBEscapee

Give me a break. YOU can’t imagine? You know nothing of the process but YOU can’t imagine. Now that is what I call ignorant.

Well, the guys I know don’t fall into any of the preferred categories you listed. I guess they’re not really in the country.

I have talked to them about it, it’s not like I just pulled this out of my ass. They are all single, non-professionals without any degrees or special training.

What I meant by I CAN’T IMAGINE! I CAN’T IMAGINE! was, just speaking to them, it didn’t seem to be any great feat, hearing it from them. They weren’t tortured by the CIA until they told them the truth: They wanted to come here because they had friends in the area and thus a network to help them establish a base.

I’m trying really hard to engage you in a rational dialog, but your constant condescending attitude is wearing on me. I’m not an immigrant, but I’ve at least asked some guys how hard it was and they didn’t give any indication that it was any big deal. Now that doesn’t make me an expert, and none of these conversations have been in the last couple of years, but other than applying for immigration into my own country it seems like asking those who have is at least a small step towards learning about it.

So I may be ignorant of every last detail, but I’ll stick with what my guys have told me: It’s not that hard.

[FinnAgain]

@CBEscapee

When has it been easy for Mexicans to immigrate?

Um, now?

[

In 2000, over 50 percent of legal immigrants arrived from the “Americas” (North, Central, and South America, and the Caribbean). Half of these immigrants migrated from Mexico.

](http://www.prcdc.org/summaries/immigration/immigration.html)

Some on demographics:

[

Almost two-thirds of adult Mexican immigrants have not completed high school, compared to fewer than one in ten natives. Mexican immigrants now account for 22 percent of all high school dropouts in the labor force.
[snip]
Because of their much lower education levels, Mexican immigrants earn significantly less than natives on average. This results in lower average tax payments and heavier use of means-tested programs. Based on estimates developed by the National Academy of Sciences for immigrants by age and education at arrival, the lifetime fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average adult Mexican immigrant is a negative $55,200.

](http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/mexico/release.html)

[

Brain drain to the United States

The first striking feature of the U.S. migration data is that immigration flows of individuals with no more than a primary education are quite small, both in absolute terms and relative to other educational groupings (about 500,000 individuals out of a total of 7 million immigrants). Foreign-born individuals with little or no education, however, may be undercounted by the census if they are in the country illegally or do not speak English. The largest group of immigrants into the United States (about 3.7 million) consists of individuals with secondary education from other North American countries (understood here to include Central American and Caribbean countries), primarily Mexico. Perhaps surprisingly, the second largest group (almost 1.5 million individuals) consists of highly educated migrants from Asia and the Pacific. Total immigration from South America and, especially, Africa is quite small. It is noteworthy, however, that immigrants from Africa consist primarily of highly educated individuals (about 95,000 of the 128,000 African migrants).

Among the countries in Asia and the Pacific, the biggest source is the Philippines, with 730,000 migrants. Of these, the great majority have a tertiary education. The second largest stock of migrants is from China (400,000), which is split almost equally between the secondary and tertiary educational groups. Both India and Korea have seen more than 300,000 people migrate to the United States. It is striking that more than 75 percent of Indian immigrants have a tertiary education, compared with only 53 percent of Korean immigrants.

The biggest migratory flows from Africa to the United States are from Egypt, Ghana, and South Africa, with more than 60 percent of immigrants from those three countries having a tertiary education. Migration of Africans with only a primary education is almost nil. The picture is quite different for the migratory flows from the Western Hemisphere: Mexico is by far the largest sending country (2.7 million), with the large majority of its migrants (2.0 million) having a secondary education and fewer than 13 percent having a tertiary education. This pattern is also observed for the smaller countries of Central America, but not for the two Caribbean countries for which we have information, for which migrants with a tertiary education are a more substantial percentage of the total (42 percent for Jamaica and 46 percent for Trinidad and Tobago). Finally, migration from South America to the United States is relatively small in absolute numbers, with immigrants split almost equally between the secondary and the tertiary educational groups.
[snip]
Our estimates show that there is an overall tendency for migration rates to be higher for highly educated individuals. With the important exceptions of Central America and Mexico, the highest migration rates are for individuals with a tertiary education. A number of countries—especially small countries in Africa, the Caribbean, and Central America—lost more than 30 percent of this group to migration. We have also found a sizable brain drain from Iran, Korea, the Philippines, and Taiwan Province of China. These numbers suggest that in several developing countries the outflow of highly educated individuals is a phenomenon that policymakers cannot ignore.

](http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/1999/06/carringt.htm)

Oh, and, pot, kettle:
[

Aliens, their embassies, nongovernmental organizations (NGOs), international agencies, and Mexico’s migrant-protection Beta Groups find that most abuses suffered by immigrants entering Mexico take place along its 600-mile border with Guatemala, with far fewer crimes committed on the frontier between Quintana Roo and Belize. That the army, which is more professional than most Mexican police forces, makes most of the arrests in Quintana Roo (where it is deployed to combat drug trafficking) may explain the lower incidence of wrongdoing in this state. Still, the region is awash in newcomers. For example, tens of thousands of illegal aliens perform construction work in the Tulum-Cancun “Maya Rivera” in Quintana Roo.

A study conducted in the Tenosique area of Chiapas found that three groups criminals (47.5 percent), the local Public Security police (15.2 percent), and migration agents (15.2 percent) accounted for most of the mistreatment of immigrants arriving in Mexico from Central America mainly along the new El Naranjo-El Ceibo-Tenosique highway. Further south in Chiapas in the Tapachula, Puerto Madero, Ciudad Hidalgo, and Soconusco region charges have frequently been leveled against plantation, or finca, owners for exploiting Guatemalan guestworkers, known as jornaleros or braceros, who work on their vast ranches.

[snip]

Rather than engage in crude violence, unscrupulous officials typically exact bribes or mordidas. The payments may be a few dollars to allow a single person to transit the border or thousands of dollars to permit the passage of drugs, weapons, stolen automobiles, prostitutes, exotic animals, or archeological artifacts. Individuals and professional smugglers often endure shakedowns from both Mexican and Guatemalan officials before encountering private-sector bandits.

](http://www.cis.org/articles/2002/back702.html)

And, racism?

[

MEXICO CITY May 16, 2005 — President Vicente Fox refused to apologize Monday for saying Mexicans in the United States do the work that blacks won’t a comment widely viewed as acceptable in a country where blackface comedy is still considered funny and nicknames often reflect skin color.

](http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=761885&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312)
Besides which, why should you assume that anybody, at all, has a ‘right’ to enter a sovereign country, let alone to immigrate to it? Either you get legal permission to enter, or stay home.

[magellan01]

@CBEscapee

I said enter stupid. Don’t you understand English?

Now this example of childishly playing with semantics is just the sort of weasly, dishonest stuff that has caused pretty much everyone in this thread to look down upon you with such disrespect. You know damn well we were not talking about those that might legally travel to the U.S. and back every day, but no matter.

Let’s play your way. You claimed that more Mexicans “enter” the U.S. legally than illegaly. I asked you for a cite showing how many “enter” the U.S. legally and illegally. I now ask you again.

Cite, please.

[Duke_of_Rat]

@FinnAgain

Besides which, why should you assume that anybody, at all, has a ‘right’ to enter a sovereign country, let alone to immigrate to it? Either you get legal permission to enter, or stay home.

Nice post, for a gringo racist

All I have is anecdotal input into this portion of the debate, and I can see that this isn’t going to cut it.

Not that your very impressive list of sites will do a damn bit of good, either, but I have a feeling that no amount of evidence is going to sway this guy.

We=Evil They=Oppressed Game, set, match.

[FinnAgain]

@Duke of Rat

Nice post, for a gringo racist

Well, I try.

@magellan01

Cite, please.

He can’t, and won’t.

[

About 5.3 million undocumented immigrants from Mexico are living in the United States, according to estimates based on the March 2002 Current Population Survey (CPS) as well as census and other government data. Over one in every two Mexican immigrants is undocumented…

](Migration Information Source | migrationpolicy.org)

[

About 80 to 85 percent of the migration from Mexico in recent years has been undocumented.

](http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=44)

[What_Exit]

@FinnAgain

Well, I try.

He can’t, and won’t.

[

[url=http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=44]](Migration Information Source | migrationpolicy.org)

I would just like to point out the CBEscapee has pulled off something I never thought I would see.

He actually has **FinnAgain ** and **Clothahump ** on the same side.
I say this for you CBEscapee, you have unified this board in a way I have never seen in the months I have been here.

I would normally give you credit for keeping up the fight, but I think this is a case where you would be better off letting it die.

BTW: why are Mexicans or any other group entitled to immigrate to the USA?
Isn’t that at a Sovereign countries discretion?

Jim

[Monty]

Jim: It’s simply because so much of Mexico’s income comes from the illegal alien Mexicans (no, I shan’t use the term undocumented) currently in the United States of America. Now, Mexico derives no income whatsoever from those who illegally enter Mexico across its southern border. In short, Mexico thinks it’s fine and dandy to protect its border from illegal crossing but is quite upset with the United States of America doing the very same thing, albeit, as the government of Mexico admits, the United States’ government does it with far less draconian measures than Mexico does.