Happy now Clothahump?

[FinnAgain]

First, I’d appreciate it if you’d respond to these twoposts.

Seeing as how they were earlier than the posts you responded to I’m sure that you read them and only forgot to respond to the data by accident.

Oh, and, on the topic of illegal immigration:

[

An unbelievable story tonight out of Mexico, where officials have published a guide, a guide filled with tips for Mexican citizens to help illegal aliens safely cross the border into this country. Although the book warns against illegally crossing that border, it lays out step by step instructions on how to do just that. Casey Wian reports from Los Angeles.

](http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0501/03/ldt.01.html)

Personally, just to throw all my cards onto the table face up, I consider this to be somewhere between an act of economic terrorism and outright war; a slowmotion invasion aided by the Mexican government. I, personally, am not even sure that I would have much of a problem with there being a shoot-on-sight policy along our borders at any place other than a legal crossing point, but the jury’s still out. I do support the right of asylum for those fleeing other countries, and believe that we should accept as many immigrants as is economicaly benifical for our nation.

I believe that anybody, of any race, creed, nationality, etc… who tries to enter our country illegally is guilty of undermining the safety and security of the American people. If they then use a deadly weapon with malicious intent upon a LEO guarding our borders, I have no sympathy for them, at all. None. Sure, investigate the shooting. But as far as I’m concerned if you’re in the process of violating the borders of the United States (alone or in a group), and use lethal force on a border guard, your life is forfeit. Even if you try to escape after using lethal force.

Now…

@CBEscapee

My POV on this is that demand fuels supply. As soon as the demand dries up, so does the supply. If enough Americans are determined to put a stop to illegal immigration then why aren’t the US politicians doing something effective to remove the demand by sanctioning the people that give them jobs.

Response the first
Translation: why isn’t the US government effective and highly responsive to the will of the people?
Response: ~snerk~

Response the second
[

…it is against the law to hire illegal aliens…

](http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back704.html)
Swing and a miss, eh? Personally I wouldn’t have much problem with effective enforcement of current laws on the books combined with increased security at the borders.

@CBEscapee

The illegals are being made into scapegoats

You misspelled “…are equally guilty and should be dealt with as well.”

@CBEscapee

I have never said anyone had a right to enter the country. But as long as the demand is there poor people will continue to cross the border to fill it.

Ironic, then, that you’re calling for an increased crackdown on US businesses rather than for Mexico to fix its economy… if you honestly care about the drive that motivates people living in poverty to look for a better life.

@CBEscapee

What is in it for Mexico for these workers to remain illegal?

Billions in tax free greenbacks sent to Mexico?

[

18 percent of all adults in Mexico … are remittance receivers–

](Hispanic Youth Dropping Out of U.S. Schools | Pew Research Center)

@CBEscapee

In the meantime what is wrong in fighting for basic human rights for the undocumented workers?

Which human rights, exactly, are we talking about?

@CBEscapee

Because they are in the US illegally does that mean they are fair game for abuse and exploitation?

No, only deportation and/or arrest, but I’d rather my tax dollars didn’t go towards supporting an illegal immigrant in prison.

Oh, and, rocks?

[

Illegal immigrants threw rocks at a Border Patrol helicopter, forcing the pilot to make an emergency landing when one of the rocks damaged the rotor, the agency said.

](http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/08/25/D8C71P6O0.html)

[E-Sabbath]

@CBEscapee

That is complete garbage.
How many terrorists have entered from Mexico? How many have entered from Canada?

CBE is correct, here. Ancedotally, I have heard of far more issues with canada and terror. The Millenium plot, for one.

[magellan01]

@CBEscapee

You’re showing your stupidity again. Treaties, agreements etc are usually negotiated between two countries. No one said anything about Mexico dictating policy. They make proposals, the US makes counter proposals. It’s called negotiating. If you weren’t so fucking stupid you’d recognize the benefit of bilateral negotiations.

Well, that’s what I get for trying to suspend my belief that you are a nothing but another dumb Mexican with no respect for laws or a country’s sovereignity and giving you a chance to expand on particular points you’ve made. So be it.

Look shithead, I asked you a question based on a comment you made regarding Mexico requesting that we change our immigration policy towrd Mexico. Mexico can ask for whatever the fuck they want. But our immigration policy should be set by what would benefit the U.S., not your corrupt shithole. Or any other. So they request, we say no, then what? Demand? And with what to back it up such demands? Rocks?

And now catapults? :eek: If you weren’t so fucking stupid and your country so fucking barbaric, that would actually be funny. But it’s not.

So go swallow another bottle of tequila then shove the bottle up your ass,

Or vice versa.

[levdrakon]

@E-Sabbath

CBE is correct, here. Ancedotally, I have heard of far more issues with canada and terror. The Millenium plot, for one.

Anecdotally? Could it not be that Canada keeps better records? Like, “oh shit, we let so-and-so through six months ago and turns out he was Al Qaeda.” Whereas Mexico is all, “Al Qaeda? No Al Qaeda has gotten into the US via Mexico! Why, we let millions of illegals pass into the US ever year and… and… never mind.”

[FinnAgain]

And, heck, while I’m at it, about that guide…

[

Much of the guide focuses on what illegal aliens should do if caught by the border patrol. It tells them not to throw rocks at border patrol agents, saying that would be considered provocation.

](http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0501/03/ldt.01.html)

Kinda surreal, no? Who needs to be told that throwing rocks is provocative? Just how stupid is the target audience for this guide? Is there anywhere in the world where hurling a rock at someone’s head isn’t considered to be provocation?

[even_sven]

Getting to the US from Honduras is very difficult. I know this because I have a good friend from an unpopular country who really really wanted to visit Disneyland but couldn’t get a US visa. I am pretty well informed about this particular route in tot he US.

Ten years ago it was tough but possible. In recent years Mexico has really tightened the Guatemala border (they have their own illegal immigrant problems) and a whole industry of thieves, murderers, scammers and worse have sprung up along the immigration routes to prey on fleeing Central Americans. These are some of the baddest bad guys in Mexico. For all of Al Qaeda’s planning, this is a long, strenuous and danger-filled journey that many don’t survive. Just about any other plan they could come up with would be a better one than this.

Anyway, a couple months ago I was waiting at a bus stop and some punk kid started throwing rocks at me. I was well on my way to dialing the police when my ride came. It never dawned on me to shoot the guy.

[Weirddave]

@FinnAgain

Personally, just to throw all my cards onto the table face up, I consider this to be somewhere between an act of economic terrorism and outright war; a slowmotion invasion aided by the Mexican government.

You put you finger directly on the problem. Mexico has a population crisis, and President Fox’s solution is to export up to a quarter of the population to the United States. Recently, units from the Mexican army have been posted along the border with the United States. Their job is not to intercept the flow of people who are trying to cross into the US illegally, unless these people are heading for a section of the border that happens to be patrolled at the moment, meaning they are likely to get caught. At this point the army does intercept the illegals…and buses them to a portion of the border that is not heavily patrolled. Mexico doesn’t want to stop these people from leaving, they are Mexico’s second most valuable “export”. Mexican illegals in America pump 16 billion dollars into the Mexican economy annually, the only other commodity that makes Mexico more money is oil. Thinking that Mexico is going to do anything at all about this problem is madness. It is in every way beneficial to Mexico.

@FinnAgain

I, personally, am not even sure that I would have much of a problem with there being a shoot-on-sight policy along our borders at any place other than a legal crossing point, but the jury’s still out. I do support the right of asylum for those fleeing other countries, and believe that we should accept as many immigrants as is economically benifical for our nation.

I believe that anybody, of any race, creed, nationality, etc… who tries to enter our country illegally is guilty of undermining the safety and security of the American people. If they then use a deadly weapon with malicious intent upon a LEO guarding our borders, I have no sympathy for them, at all. None. Sure, investigate the shooting. But as far as I’m concerned if you’re in the process of violating the borders of the United States (alone or in a group), and use lethal force on a border guard, your life is forfeit. Even if you try to escape after using lethal force.

I feel the same way. Let’s see how long it takes CB to call you a racist. Bet he glosses right over the “any race, creed, nationality” part.

@FinnAgain

Response the first
Translation: why isn’t the US government effective and highly responsive to the will of the people?
Response: ~snerk~

I’ll give you the answer to the question of why the Govt doesn’t do anything effective in one word: Florida. Recent elections have been so close, and Florida has paid such a pivotal role in deciding which way they went, that neither side is going to piss off the sizable block of Hispanic voters there, a block that can swing the state one way or the other. Both sides are afraid that effective, determined policing of our borders would do just that-and throw the Hispanic block of votes into the other side’s camp, tilting the balance of national elections for years to come. Hopefully whoever is elected President in '08 will win by a comfortable majority and will feel comfortable confronting the problem of illegals head on instead of this pussyfooting all around the issue that we have now.

[Weirddave]

Gah! Can a friendly passing Mod remove that period from in front of the second end quote please?

[CBEscapee]

@levdrakon

Anecdotally? Could it not be that Canada keeps better records? Like, “oh shit, we let so-and-so through six months ago and turns out he was Al Qaeda.” Whereas Mexico is all, “Al Qaeda? No Al Qaeda has gotten into the US via Mexico! Why, we let millions of illegals pass into the US ever year and… and… never mind.”

US Navy Admiral Thomas Keating who is in the American in charge of Northern Command said less than one month again in an interview with an American newspaper:

"* **we are unaware, totally, zero, *as to knowledge of terrorists using that avenue to infiltrate the United States of America. We’re just as concerned about the Canadian border. "

“* That is to say, we’re unaware of any terrorists who are using that method of getting into the United States. We have no indication, zero indication, that the terrorists have used that as a method of entry into the United States.*”

Here’s the link: Keating interview

So if this is untrue I’d say you have serious problems with the people running national security.

[CBEscapee]

@Weirddave

You put you finger directly on the problem. Mexico has a population crisis, and President Fox’s solution is to export up to a quarter of the population to the United States. Recently, units from the Mexican army have been posted along the border with the United States. Their job is not to intercept the flow of people who are trying to cross into the US illegally, unless these people are heading for a section of the border that happens to be patrolled at the moment, meaning they are likely to get caught. At this point the army does intercept the illegals…and buses them to a portion of the border that is not heavily patrolled. Mexico doesn’t want to stop these people from leaving, they are Mexico’s second most valuable “export”. Mexican illegals in America pump 16 billion dollars into the Mexican economy annually, the only other commodity that makes Mexico more money is oil. Thinking that Mexico is going to do anything at all about this problem is madness. It is in every way beneficial to Mexico.

Give me some cites asshole. And please don’t post any bullshit from one of those far right, white supremacist blog cum “news” blogs.

[CBEscapee]

@magellan01

Well, that’s what I get for trying to suspend my belief that you are a nothing but another dumb Mexican with no respect for laws or a country’s sovereignity and giving you a chance to expand on particular points you’ve made. So be it.

Look shithead, I asked you a question based on a comment you made regarding Mexico requesting that we change our immigration policy towrd Mexico. Mexico can ask for whatever the fuck they want. But our immigration policy should be set by what would benefit the U.S., not your corrupt shithole. Or any other. So they request, we say no, then what? Demand? And with what to back it up such demands? Rocks?

And now catapults? :eek: If you weren’t so fucking stupid and your country so fucking barbaric, that would actually be funny. But it’s not.

So go swallow another bottle of tequila then shove the bottle up your ass,

Or vice versa.

You are truly fucking psycho.

[CBEscapee]

@Weirddave

Their job is not to intercept the flow of people who are trying to cross into the US illegally, unless these people are heading for a section of the border that happens to be patrolled at the moment, meaning they are likely to get caught.

How about all you fine red blooded 'mercans explain to me why you want Mexico to stop the freedom of movement of its own citizens within its own borders or help the US in any way to deal with the immigration problem but when I made a post explaining a proposal by the Mexican government for a solution Mexico gets accused of “dictating” policy to the US? Anyone who says this isn’t hypocrosy is a moron.

@magellan01

Why do you think that a country’s immigration policy should be dictated by another country?

[magellan01]

@CBEscapee

You are truly fucking psycho.

Damn, you’re right. That was really dumb of me to leave out the obvious third option. Since you already have your head up your ass, you can insert the bottle and drink at the same time. How could I have missed that?! :smack:

[Weirddave]

@CBEscapee

Give me some cites asshole. And please don’t post any bullshit from one of those far right, white supremacist blog cum “news” blogs.

Link

[levdrakon]

@CBEscapee

US Navy Admiral Thomas Keating who is in the American in charge of Northern Command said less than one month again in an interview with an American newspaper:

"* **we are unaware, totally, zero, *as to knowledge of terrorists using that avenue to infiltrate the United States of America. We’re just as concerned about the Canadian border. "

“* That is to say, we’re unaware of any terrorists who are using that method of getting into the United States. We have no indication, zero indication, that the terrorists have used that as a method of entry into the United States.*”

Here’s the link: Keating interview

So if this is untrue I’d say you have serious problems with the people running national security.

Dude, he’s NORAD. He can tell you terrorists aren’t flying across the US-Mexico border. He can tell you the Russians and Chinese aren’t flying across our border. He can tell space aliens aren’t flying across our border. What’s that got to do with the millions of undocumented illegals walking across the border? The Border Patrol can’t even tell us how many are crossing, who they are, or what they’re smuggling in. What makes you think NORAD can?

This guy makes me feel all warm and cuddly. The terrorists aren’t flying TU-95 Bear bombers across our borders. That’s nice.

[CBEscapee]

Who’s dodging questions now? #373 and #374

[CBEscapee]

@levdrakon

Dude, he’s NORAD. He can tell you terrorists aren’t flying across the US-Mexico border. He can tell you the Russians and Chinese aren’t flying across our border. He can tell space aliens aren’t flying across our border. What’s that got to do with the millions of undocumented illegals walking across the border? The Border Patrol can’t even tell us how many are crossing, who they are, or what they’re smuggling in. What makes you think NORAD can?

This guy makes me feel all warm and cuddly. The terrorists aren’t flying TU-95 Bear bombers across our borders. That’s nice.

It’s obvious you didn’t read the link which really shows what a close-minded moron that you really are.

“Keating’s Northern Command is the headquarters responsible for defending the continental United States against any external or internal threat, included that from terrorism.”

Yep I bet they keep the man with all of that responsibilty outside the loop when it comes to intelligence sharing. Of course American intelligence sure hit the nail on he head when it came to Iraq’s WMD, so you may have a point.

[FinnAgain]

It seems that you have now forgotten, by accident I am sure, to respond to these three posts

And just because worldnet daily isn’t always seen as a great cite:

[

Even before Fox took office, the Mexican government took measures to protect illegal migrants while still on Mexican soil with the creation of a special police force known as Grupo Beta. Journalist Sebastian Rotella describes these plain clothesmen in action. Piratical-looking men in army jackets materialize out of the night where they join a crowd of cowering emigrants near the fences. The huddled emigrants cringe at the strangers’ approach. The officers crouch next to the migrants to survey the landscape, the gleaming-wet silhouettes of the U.S. Border Patrol vehicles gliding through the mist. The officers pass out business cards. Don’t worry compa, we’re the police, Beta Gobernacion (Interior Ministry). We are here to help. Any problems? Seen bandits around? Any police bother you? Let us know. (Rotella 1998: 92).
Grupo Beta has even prepared a pamphlet in comic book form written in simple Spanish and illustrated with colored pictures explaining how to deal with hazards on the way to their illegal border crossing. The pamphlet also includes directions on how to file complaints against police who have exploited them. The creation of a special Mexican police force to protect Mexican citizens on Mexican soil from Mexican police is yet another measure of the low level of governability in that country. The fact that such protection is given by one country to facilitate the violation of the law of a neighbor tells us how far apart the two countries really are and thus how much the border matters in that respect.

[snip]

Frequent incursions into the United States by armed Mexican police and military are routine. Among the many incidents reported is a confrontation between Mexican soldiers and Nogales, Arizona, police inside smugglers’ tunnels that burrow beneath the city. Another case is that of a Mexican army patrol inside the United States who fired on a mounted Border Patrolman in New Mexico. Many observers say that armed Mexican police and soldiers inside the United States are working on behalf of smugglers and other criminal elements. A deeply concerned Border Patrol union has made some of those incidents public and Rep. Tom Tancredo from Colorado has protested to the Mexican government.

](http://www.cis.org/articles/2003/back803.html)

[

Recently, eyewitnesses participating in the high profile “Minuteman” project along the US-Mexico border in Arizona have reported seeing members of the Mexican military escorting would-be illegal immigrants more than thirty miles to help them avoid detection by the “Minutemen” in their efforts to illegally enter the United States. Do you think its appropriate for the Mexican government to assist people intending to violate U.S. law in this way?

](http://tancredo.house.gov/press/press_blog.shtml)

@CBEscape

How about all you fine red blooded 'mercans explain to me why you want Mexico to stop the freedom of movement of its own citizens within its own borders or help the US in any way to deal with the immigration problem but when I made a post explaining a proposal by the Mexican government for a solution Mexico gets accused of “dictating” policy to the US? Anyone who says this isn’t hypocrosy is a moron.

Again this is a silly little sidestepping debating tactic. The issue is not that the Mexican military is not actively stopping illegals, but that they, and the Mexican government, are helping them. You can understand the difference, yes?

[What_Exit]

@CBEscapee

Who’s dodging questions now? #373 and #374

Well you never addressed the more civil questions:
Like mine asking politely for some details to the Spanish post you made or FinnAgain’s

Maybe is you want to exchange ideas you could start by address some of the more polite posts.

I’m leaving soon, but if you get a chance to provide the details of the spanish article I will read them later this weekend and hopefully give a fair answer.

Jim

[FinnAgain]

@CBEscapee

Who’s dodging questions now? #373 and #374

You are.
You asked for and got a cite and then didn’t respond to the assertion.

@CBEscapee

Of course American intelligence sure hit the nail on he head when it came to Iraq’s WMD, so you may have a point.

:rolleyes:
Google “Office of Special Plans cherrypick”, or read this.