Hard Science of Orgasm Physiology

I know there are a lot of others here who have the background to really have a serious (if slightly speculative ) discussion with real facts. My background is in medicine and molecular biology. I know whe have some other physicians as regulars and at least two physiologists.

All are welcome to contribute (and certainly to read along), but I’d prefer more hard science than anecdotes. [I myself have a killer personal anecdote - but this is not the place for it]

I guess I should start things rolling… Scientific American had a short nontechnical article about a new pathway for orgasms: the vagus nerve! I bet that wasn’t what you were taught in school! http://www.sciam.com/1296issue/1296scicit5.html

[The vagus nerve is a cranial nerve: one of 12 (pairs of) nerves that come directly out of the brain, rather than the nerve roots of the spinal cord. In gross anatomy, I was taught that it extended to the gall bladder, just under the liver/diaphragm, and no further. Many anatomists still believe this]

Many of the most important vagal functions are parasympathetic – slowing heart rate etc. – and of course sexual arousal is a parasympathetic function (orgasm itself is largely sympathetic). Apparently Frankie had it right when he said ‘Relax’ [“Relax, when you want to come” an 80’s hit by the group Frankie Goes to Hollywood] And of course, agents like yohimbine are used medically to induce erections by blocking sympathetic alpha-2 receptors, thereby increasing parasympathetic effects

[Sympathetic = “fight or flight”; “adrenaline”; raises heart rate, pupils dilate, blood goes from shin to muscles; etc.
Parasympathetic - relaxation response; cholinergic; slows heart rate; pupils constrict, blood goes to internal organs and skin (flush); etc.]

Now to me, this suggested immediate implications for the so-called pharmacological orgasms – clomiprimine (etc.) was one druch that caused orgasms in some women, especially when they sneeze or yawn. It’s easy to see the beginnings of a parasympathetic/sympathetic mediated structure for ‘polymorphic perversity’

BTW, does anyone know if that’s a legitimate term? I recall reading a couple of books that claimed to be “The Procedings of the Journal of Polymorphic Perversity” about 10 years ago, but they were clearly humorous essay … I believe bt members of the Amer. Psych. Assn

Comments? Clarifications? Other interesting findings? C’mon we have to have some grad student out there – they’re the ones who remember all the details for us anyway!

Picky stuff first–

  1. The column being discussed is Can some people have orgasms without genital stimulation?

  2. There was no “Frankie” in the group “Frankie Goes to Hollywood”. The group got its name from a wall poster promoting a Frank Sinatra movie.

Finally, I understood virtually nothing in the opening post, because it was so advanced. Still, it gave me a much greater appreciation for Cecil’s selfless efforts, if this is the type of material he sometimes has to plow through and condense, in order to “tell us the good parts”.

Oops sorry, I tried to include some explanation without boring the people with the technical details I was curious to hear. I was a little disappointed that Cecil’s article was little more than a summary of discussions that took place among the members of this board, like Researching “psychic orgasms” and others.

But yes, I tend to be fact-heavy, even when discussing silly subjects. (It also might have made more sense if I had made fewer typos – “shin” vs. “shin”; “druch” vs. “drug”, etc.)

I realize there was no Frankie, but there was a time when you couldn’t turn around without seeing an authorized ‘Frankie Says “Relax”’ T-shirt, so I just played along.

I hope it’ll get more interesting for you after (if) we get a conversation going. I hope you’ll drop in then.


My closing question in the last post was meant to ask if Polymorphic Perversity is a legitimate medical description. I realize that it’s an legitimate Freudian term.

Maybe I didn’t understand the question, but, I mean, at some time in their lives, aren’t most men trying desperately to clean the sheets without mom finding out? I suppose, being that I was asleep whenever this happened, I don’t know that no genital stimulation was involved. But given the rest of the people in the house when I was seventeen, I would have to say I’m glad I was unconscious if there was.

“When I was seventeen, it was a very good year. It was a very good year for messy sheets and yellow underwear. When I was seventeen.”

Jerry

Well, yeah.
I mean given that the overwhelming majority of humans are completly paralyzed during sleep, and the overwhelming majority of (young)men have wet dreams, you would have to say they have orgasm without genital stimulation. Or any stimulation, except mental.

Hmmm…ya know, I was also awash in hormones at 17, but like a lot of female persons, didn’t “learn” how to have an orgasm, by any means, till years later. And yet, apparently, as adults, it’s women who can get off via the earlobe and guys who just wish they could. Very interesting.

Just a small nitpick but most of the results in Cecil’s column did not come from “discussions among members of this board”, they came from personal, private e-mailed responses to a questionnaire Ed sent to those females (males, too?) who were willing to participate. I’m not challenging your question about the veracity of his conclusions, just making sure that everyone knows this wasn’t like Cecil secretly recorded a slumber party conversation between females on the board.

So, is the “vagus nerve” going to be the next “G-spot”? Am I going to have to learn how to find IT, too? ::: sigh :::

Carolyn Purcell and Bête Noir:
You’re quite right. External stimulation isn’t necessary for orgasm – we all know the biggest sex organ is the brain [well, except for a few fortunate(?) individuals :wink: ] Quadraplegics can have orgasms, and quite satisfying sex lives (per patient and partner report), even if numb or paralyzed from the neck or upper chest down.

I’ve had a lifelong amateur interest in sexual stimulation (funding has not been forthcoming!) and have been filing away medical tidbits all along. I was hoping we’d get a tidbit swap-meet going here, since I’ve noticed that similar threads in more professional BBS’s do not last long. I guess I missed the lecture on “how to be a sex god”, that left them with mothing more to learn.

Then again, I’m not big on dignity. I’ve always believed a physician should work by the motto: <i>“I am human, and nothing human can be alien to me.”</i> (Maya Angelou)

Yikes, forgot where I was! The original was <i>“Homo sum: humani nil ab me alienum puto.”</i> (Terence, Roman playwright)

EvilBeth:
You’re quite right. Thanks for clarifying. However, a lot of people were spilling personal details the past week or two on unrelated threads. I guess this topic struck a – no, I won’t say it.

I was hoping for academic source material. I’m halfway considering sending my file on this to Cecil in September, to inspire him to write more. (It’s currently on loan to an anatomy professor to liven up his summer review session)

Notthemama:
And I heard you practically invented indirect vagal stimulation! I believe part of the stimulating effect of neck nibbling is due to stimulation of the vagus, which runs a giant loop in the neck. Massage of certain specific spots on the neck is used as a quick diagnostic or therapeutic technique (but you must be careful, you can make some people lose consciousness)

Similarly ear-nibbling --there are some interesting oddities about the way the external ear and the area around it are supplied by nerves. Some people can even lose consciousness from stimulation with a Q-tip, due to vagus effects!

Most of the 12 cranial nerves are very specific: I=smell; II=sight; III, IV, VI=movement of eyes; VIII=hearing/balance (inner ear). So isn’t it interesting that all the rest seem to throw a branch to the external ear, and the area around it – even if they must go to great lengths to do so?

Oops - lost a line somehow.

carolynpurcell and BêteNoir:
External genital stimulation is not required by quadriplegics. I didn’t mean to imply their acts were purely psychological. Sadly, we often ignore thair sexual capacities, and this I’ve always hoped that the material I’ve accumulated might help us better help them someday. (so you see, I’m not just a dirty young man!)

No responses… (sigh)

Okay, here’s a detail that few doctors know. Ask a physician where vaginal lubrication comes from, and most will rattle off something about a gland. Skene’s Glands, Bartolin’s glands, Cowper’s glands…

But if you think about it, that doesn’t make any sense, all three are located in the “introitus” or the area near the opening of the vagina, which (I think we’ll all agree) is not where lubrication originates.

Actually, most of the volume of vaginal lubrication is an ultrafiltrate of plasma. This means that the water and some of the small molecules from the plasma ‘leak’ through the vaginal wall directly from the plasma. Strange but true.

Now think back on all that stuff in renal physiology. Ask yourself how the membrane opens… and how this might apply to female ejaculation. Food for thought.

This does have practical significance. When I was doing an OB/GYN rotation at a major urban hospital, I heard of a case that came into the ER where two men had dusted their genital with cocaine, and apparently enough was absorbed through the vaginal wall to put their partners into overdose.

[I wonder what they thought they’d accomplish. Applied to the vaginal lining, cocaine would be a local anesthetic (its current primary medical use), and every user knows it makes the tongue and nose numb. In the blood stream, it would be a stimulant, counteracting the ‘relaxing’ parasympathetic effect that supports physiological arousal]

Last year, there was a series of newspaper articles that the fad among Finnish girls was to use vodka soaked tampons to stay drunk through class. I was unable to find a good academic source at the time, and frankly, even with the high rate of alcoholism among Finns, it sounds… painful

[I wonder what they thought they’d accomplish. Applied to the vaginal lining, cocaine would be a local anesthetic (its current primary medical use), and every user knows it makes the tongue and nose numb. In the blood stream, it would be a stimulant, counteracting the ‘relaxing’ parasympathetic effect that supports physiological arousal]
I’m under the impression the cocaine-on-the-penis thing is for the benefit(?) of the penis- as and anesthetic, to keep the guy from coming too soon. Of course if it makes the woman numb too, the advantage of longer time might be lost on her.

But,speaking of drug, if cocaine conteracts the parasympathetic reaction, heroin supports it. So how come junkies can’t get it up (or come)? Too much parasympathy?

And yes, it was Terence. And, I think Wilde and Burroughs.The only thing I find alien is Maya Angelou.

KP:
I know that this has nothing to do with the op, but you seem to be very knowigable on jthe subject.

question: for women, is there a difference between “comming” and “orgasming”? My wife claims that there is a difference while i still cant seem to grasp it. While i can make here “come” almost every time we have sex, the orgasm seems to be somewhat more rare. any lite you or anyone can shed on the subject?

I know the man you need to talk to to learn to be a sex god…

His name is Mark Serlin. He has a great post on how to be a great lover…

::: totally blank look :::

Um–I did? Must’ve been in my sleep, I guess.
A quick consultation with the Better Half on whether one would care to insert a vodka-soaked tampon into one’s vagina elicited, first, a comment–“Eeww!”–and then a question–“Why?”

Ace, “coming” is the exact same thing as “having an orgasm”. Possibly what your wife is referring to is the difference between a clitoral and vaginal orgasm. I am reliably informed that yes, there is a difference. Apparently it’s easier and faster to have a plain vanilla clitoral one, but takes longer and more (mental) stimulation to have a vaginal, which technically is actually a combination of the two.

As long as your wife is happy with you, don’t ask too many questions.

FRANKIE:
Actually, I’m no more interested in being a sex god than the next guy. It’s just always puzzled me that the physiology of sex is so under-discussed and under-researched. Doctors act like this topic of ‘universal interest’ is beneath them.

er… that came out wrong … yikes! I mean it didn’t sound right (grumble… picky picky)

My med school class discussed it constantly as 1st years, but by 4th year, the ‘bull sessions’ tapered off. It wasn’t just exhaustion. I think we were simply afraid to look at things where we didn’t know the answer. That’s always in your head after third year, because nobody knows everything, and someone might die if you don’t.

I long joked about the ‘sex god lecture’ as an alternate explanation – i.e. “we know everything we need to know, bub, and don’t care to discuss it any more.” I have friends who are OB-GYNs who really don’t know much about it at all (and I’ve had to listen to their SO’s whine about that, too :wink: )

But I will look up that post - thanks!

BETENOIR:
RE: cocaine as anesthetic.

Yes – delaying ejaculation – that was my first guess, too. But, as you noted, it would clearly be self-defeating, and I think even -er- “that patient population” would be able to figure out that both partners would become numb.

Then again, I’m often stunned by the utter lack of concern or understanding some men have for a woman’s pleasure. Take cunnilingus – will someone please explain to me why every guy (who doesn’t have religious scruples) doesn’t JUMP to this simple, enjoyable technique and sadistically (we are pricks, you know, it’s in our contract) push their women to limp gelatinous exhaustion? (No, wait! I know I can make you come one more time!}

[Yes, I know. NO SD’er will ever sleep wth me after that pathetic image. Fortunately, I’m not looking.]

Instead, there seems to be this obsession on ‘potency’ and ‘prowess’. I just don’t get it. Does Senor Ricardo (provide the English translation yourself) have that much to prove?

Then again, as a poster on another thread recently reminded me, there’s a book called “The Sensuous Woman” by “J” that just about every teenage girl in the US has read or seen. AFAIK, there is no male equivalent. Fortunately, a GF started me early on the ‘shotglass’ (later, tumbler) exercise. I did it for years

Hmmm… I wonder if guys would buy a how-to book that wasn’t full of BS. No, I think we want BS. We want “How to get a girl” not “what to do when you get her”. (sigh)

RE: Heroin

Thanks for the question, because you gave me something to look into.

Heroin mimicks the natural hormones called endorphins (and enkephalins) which turn out to be responsible for things like modulating pain, causing the “runner’s high”, and perhaps some infatuations. [Alas, endorphins are not 'pleasure in a bottle", as was once anticipated] While heroin does cause pinpoint pupils, constipation, and other signs of a parasympathetic agent. It’s more what we’s call a ‘central depressant’

However, I haven’t found a specific cause for heroin impotence. “Street impurities” (one commonly cited reason) won’t explain why medical morphine can do the same thing.

Generally, the opium (or endorphin) ‘rush’ blocks other bodily urges, like hunger, so it’s no surprise that it reduces sex drive in both genders.

Worse, Opioids seem to oppose NO (nitric oxide - not to be confused with nitrous oxide) VIAGRA acts by increasing NO in the tissues of the penis, making sensations stronger, and increasing the vascular (blood vessel) effects needed to produce and maintain an erection. If opium blocks NO, it could act as an ANTI-VIAGRA in men (that’s a guess, I haven’t seen specific research on that)

I’m sure there are many other effects as well. I had the good fortune of learning urology from a man who later became one of the “Viagra gurus”, and he used to emphasize what a delicate physiological balance an erection was – almost anything could upset it.

Re: Terence, Wilde, Burroughs, and Angelou

Funny, they one that seemed weird to me on that list is Wilde. He’s certainly clever enough – but when did he ever claim empathy for his fellow man? [I *do* love his quips though!]

ACEOSPADES:
Since your wife insists there’s a difference (and I make it a point to believe a lady – until she argues with me), I wonder if she means ‘orgasm’ vs. ‘ejaculation’. Does you wife ever experience the so-called ‘female ejaculation’?

Aside from that, I’d agree with the others who noted that many women feel very distinct types of orgasm – some as many as 4 types, in my experience (and I’m sure others, more athletic and adventurous than I, have counted more).

Okay, I need you to do an experiment. We have a weekend coming up. Could ou please (SD is counting on you) make her come as many different ways as possible. She may have some ideas on how best to do this. Report back to us on Monday. Don’t forget to tabulate the relative ‘strength’ of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and subsequent orgasms in each series.

Oh, and we’ll need a large sample size for statistical significance – say 100 orgasms. Thanks.

NOTTHEMAMA:

Sorry, just messin’ with ya.

As regards the vodka tampon – that was my reaction too.

I’m not sure I’d agree with the “If she’s happy, don’t ask too many questions” approach. If sex isn’t about making a happy woman happier, I’;m missing something

YOUR homework assignment is to develop a tampon that’s “ribbed for her pleasure”.
(Hot damn! That may just cure PMS!)

"Hard Science of Orgasm Physiology "

Do you write headlines for Leno, by any chance?

100 orgasms?!? What, do you want me to cut back or something?

well, the bad news is she fucked up her birthcontroll so no sex (bill’s defination). i guess i’ll have to be cerative and fall back to some untriditional means. i’ll see what i can wip up by monday.

Frankie:

Hmmmm… I just read a few posts by MarkSerlin, and I get the sneaking suspicion that you are either jerking my chain or making a wry critique of this thread.

While he isn’t as boorish as many men I’ve talked to (which is more a sad commentary on men than praise of him), the posts I’ve read seem to be little more than expressions of (and defense of) his personal taste. I must admit that some of the attacks on him seem a bit overblown, but I suspect there is a long history there, of which I am unaware. It doesn’t seem worthwhile to research the matter

Was ‘sex god’ some sort of key phrase in the threads by or about him? Is that the joke I’m not getting?

AceOSpades:

Well hats off to you, if you can take good notes -er- “during”. I couldn’t, for precisely the same reason never really took notes in school. I tend to get too involved in the intricacies of the -er- “lecture”.

But by no means should you cut back. It’s always terrible when innocent bystanders suffer in the name of science.

I’m sorry that circumstances preclude use of your full repertoire. Fortunately the study design can easily accomodate this. While coitus is commonly used as the control in such studies, we’ll just adjust the null hypothesis to reference another technique as the control. (Hey, Les, what’s the extension of that statistician again? Yeah the cute one with the… uh, nevermind)

Show_Biz:
Write headlines for him? No. But I bet he uses the chin trick to devastating effect. (That’s perhaps my one regret about having a beard for 90+% of my adult life. Oh well, I usually shave and re-grow in July, which isn’t too far off. I’ll have to make a note to refresh ny technique then.)

Alas, i don’t consult my Daytimer ‘during’ either.
(Note how I carefully avoided any puns about laptops and handhelds – it wasn’t easy)

I apologize if I respond to things early in the thread, but I just got here. It seems that I’ve been asked for several times - you’ve asked for a female viewpoint as well as a grad student (I’m in biological psychology/neuroscience) …well here I am.

First, we are not always paralyzed during sleep, otherwise we would not sleepwalk. We are only paralyzed during REM sleep, when we dream.

I think in the case of Coming Vs Orgasming, it is possible for a woman to be very aroused and satisfied without having an orgasm (great for when you’re just too tired).

“will someone please explain to me why every guy (who
doesn’t have religious scruples) doesn’t JUMP to this simple, enjoyable technique and sadistically (we
are pricks, you know, it’s in our contract) push their women to limp gelatinous exhaustion? (No, wait!
I know I can make you come one more time!}”

I have to comment on the above quote, because my boyfriend is sadistic like that. We discovered that manual clitoral stimulation during sex can cause the most amazing orgasms imaginable (in intensity, duration, and multiplicity!), and now I have to use my last ounce to shove his hand away once in a while so I can rest (and I don’t see how anyone could take notes, because my brain turns to mush along with the rest of me). Most women would call me lucky, but sometimes I think he enjoys my orgasms more than I do.

Anyway, I have plenty of psychology, neuroanatomy, and medical sources lying around that may add to the discussion. I always thought the vagus nerve was primarily involved in stomach and heart stuff (so I guess the way to a man’s heart is…well you get the point). Apparently it does also include the ear as mentioned before. So for practical reasons, do you think it would help to eat right before sex or to go hungry? Eating would stimulate the parasympathetic system, but could it possibly inhibit orgasm by inhibiting the sympathetic system? (and I might also note from a woman’s perspective that it can be painful to have sex on a full stomach).

One more point - a drug was mentioned that can cause orgasms, but what about those that inhibit orgasms (antidepressants come to mind)? Maybe we can work backwards to figure out what is going on.

P.S. - I can count 3 different types - 4 if you count what I referred to earlier as the difference between coming and orgasming, but I personally don’t consider that to be an orgasm.