Here ya go, xmas eve 2018.
Good grief! Thanks for sharing.
But, issues of kids tables aside – this woman’s behavior is just batty. Who the hell goes into somebody else’s home and assumes a certain manner of behavior and custom should be observed, just because they just think it so? The notion of a kids’ table is irrelavant to me.
Unfortunately, the issue of children and how to raise them properly has become a very divisive issue. I’ve seen discussions on this board that boil down to “It’s not right to be mean to kids.” – “I’m not mean to kids; I’m just not part of the Cult of the Child!” – “I’m not part of any cult just because I care about my child/ren’s needs and feelings.” – “Needs and feelings, gimme a break! I was a pariah when I was a kid, and that’s how it should be! It made me a Better Person!”
Beyond that, I’ve seen some scary things on Etiquette Hell, back in the day. But rather than summarize all the “I was in the same room with a child; please reply in a way that confirms that the child’s parents have terrible manners and the child itself is unspeakable,” I’ll give an example of someone defending their child against one of these martinets.
Single mom of a tween daughter; let’s call her Marcie and the daughter Sylvie. Childless friend Katie Know-It-All is constantly undermining other people’s decisions. For instance, when someone else was having an outdoor party (!), and brought unbreakable plates to the patio, Katie took it upon herself to bring those plates back inside and bring out ceramic plates. But when she was around Marcie and Sylvie, she really pulled out all the stops. What I remember from Marcie’s summary, when she’d finally had enough:
“Sylvie, stop wading in the creek; you’re getting your clothes wet.” Even though Marcie had already said it was okay as long as Sylvie didn’t complain afterwards.
“Stop eating that dessert; you’ve had more than your share.” Even though Marcie only wanted a couple bites, and was leaving the rest for the person with the fast metabolism.
And I think this was the last straw: It was Sylvie’s tapering-off hour, before her official bedtime. She hugged Marcie from behind so that their heads were side-by-side. Katie “averted her eyes the way you’d not-look at someone vomiting” and snapped, “Don’t drape all over your mother!” (And I remember Marcie telling us, “Sylvie will be a teenager soon, and start pulling away, so I’m going to enjoy spontaneous affection while it lasts.”)
So Marcie decided it was time for a come-to-Jesus discussion. The two exchanges I explicitly remember were, Katie: “Well, you obviously weren’t going to say anything!” Marcie: “Because I didn’t think anything needed to be said.” Katie: “If I had kids, I wouldn’t allow half the things you do!” Marcie: “Well, when and if you have kids, you can raise them as you see fit.” And yes, this was the end of their socializing. Sylvie overheard all this (not eavesdropping, just that she was in the yard and Katie, unsurprisingly, had a voice like a foghorn) and said afterwards, “She’s one of those people who thinks that kids are doing something wrong just by being kids.”
So yeah, there’s nothing like a childless person to tell parents “You Are Doing It Wrong.” They might not speak up in the moment, but they are going to carry that outrage inside them like a tumor.
Oops, forgot the key phrase, “Go to bed!” after “Don’t drape…” I think that’s why it was the last straw: Marcie said, after Sylvie had left the room, “It’s not her bedtime yet. I set her bedtime, and nobody asked you.”
Ha! We didn’t even had a room big enough for 16-20 people, let alone a table!
What an awful woman!
For all holidays (sans Easter), the family congregated at my Aunt and Uncle’s house. The adults sat at the regular dining room table, and us kids had a table set up in the sunroom.
Unfortunately, the age gap between us kids was around 17 years.
After one Thanksgiving that included canned cranberry on ivory shag carpeting, Aunt and Uncle decided to add multiple leaves to the dining room table and we were all required to sit between parents.
I guess I don’t understand why the woman thought there should be almost assigned seating at a graduation - aren’t they traditionally almost open houses, where people come and go, grab a chair and talk to whoever they’re sat near? And if a chair I wanted to sit in is in use, I just move to another until it opens again.
Yeah, there’s no two ways about it. Who the heck is she to tell anyone how to raise their child? What the hell is this arbitrary “don’t drape” rule that she imagined? I don’t understand how that is even objectionable in any way. It’s none of her business – it’s not affecting her. If Sylvie draped her arms around Katie and Katie said “please don’t drape on me – I don’t like it” that would be one thing (and a reasonable request.) But to tell someone else’s child not to do that to her own mother and to set parameters for how that person’s child should express emotion to her mother? Cuckoo-land, I tell ya. This is not her domain.
That is not a person necessary in one’s life. (And it seems that’s how it worked out.) Katie can think whatever the damned hell she pleases, but she is out-of-bounds to instruct and comment like that. Having cultivated a more calm persona over the last few years, I wouldn’t be overly pissed at Marcie – I don’t want her influencing my mood and my interaction with my child to that degree; I would just not give that comment any mental/emotional volume – but I would say to her matter-of-factly that her comment was inappropriate, like Katie did, and go from there. If Katie didn’t understand, well, tough. I don’t need Katie’s approval nor her company.
*like Marcie did.
There was a thread on another other board that may not be quite as awful, since it was about hypotheticals, not anything actually said or done, but it’s the reason I quit that board.
It was a forum for adults who were childless and okay with it. Really, what it was was a forum for women to talk about women stuff, but with no parenting talk. For instance, if someone posted about a problem in her marriage, she didn’t have to disclaim it with “And we don’t have kids, so don’t factor that into your answer.” And if the problem was that he wanted kids and she didn’t, this sure was the right place for that.
But as time went on, there was first grumbling, then rants, about “breeders” and their children. And then terms, like “spawn” being one of the milder ones, started being used. The mods ruled against negative terms for children and parents, but still allowed negative talk in general. Then a regular posted with a problem. She had to host a dinner party for her husband, his boss and some co-workers. Spouses were invited, but one couple wanted to bring their kid.
Well, of course a lot of people said “No, no kid; you’re 100% right to say no.” Heck, I was one of them, although I (and another reg) was speaking more out of concern for the child. A few hours in, the OP was informed, and informed us, that the “child” was a 15 y/o girl, and the following morning, that she didn’t want to be there, and in fact would be attending a sleepover that night.
But the funny thing is, that’s when it started getting dirty. Maybe because people could see their target, so to speak. All this is paraphrased from memory, but one poster said “Set up a card table. In the driveway.” (It was December.) Two other posters both had elaborate suggestions that averaged out to: “Give her a paper plate with a hot dog or frozen pizza on it, a Solo cup of water and plastic utensils. Seat her between her parents so she’ll have to behave, and if she causes the slightest disruption, ban her to a part of the house that has no TV, Wi-Fi, or other entertainment. You have every right to scold and stand your ground.” In fact, one of these posters used the term “it” instead of “she”.
WTF? I posted back, “Or maybe the girl will die before the day of the party. Seriously, y’all sound like you wish you were the hostess and the kid would come to your party just so you could be horrible to her. And what do you mean, scold? You mean, make a scene? Yeah, that’s real mature.” Came the reply, “It would have to be made clear that the child is uninvited and unwelcome. If her feelings are hurt, that’s on her parents, and maybe they’ll stop inflicting their precious snowflake on other people. But treating her like an invited guest sends the message that it was okay for them to bring her.”
Whoa. Okay, I wasn’t the only person who thought that was over the line. But I was the one who posted, “First of all, it didn’t work that way with my parents. Second, how about dumping food on her, slapping her around a little, and then having her arrested for trespassing and disturbing the peace? Because that’s what happened to the Greensboro lunch counter sit-inners, and they were uninvited and unwelcome, so they deserved what they got. Right?” At least, that’s what I posted, but only a few people saw it. A mod deleted it and warned me, and I lurked for a while longer and then stopped posting.
Some people, man. This almost belongs in the “Opinions you’ve never heard IRL” thread.
I was thinking about how despite being in my 40s a kids table is something I’ve only seen on TV, but all our family dinners were with my mom’s side of the family which meant there were only 3 kids. And given my brother and cousin are 6 and 7.5 years younger than me, a kids’ table would’ve been just me until I was 8 or 9 so I’m glad our folks skipped it.
They didn’t exactly skip it - no one would go to the trouble of setting up a separate table at all if there were five adults, one kid and a table that seated six. Or eight adults, one kid and two tables that seat six each - no one is setting up a third table for one kid. No one is going to make a kid or two sit at a completely separate table that table is going to butt up against the adult table.
My mother has eight grandchildren. Until a couple of years ago, they were “the kids table” even though some were over 30 at the time. Why would they not want to sit with their similar aged cousins? There’s plenty of time before and after the meal to talk to the aunts and uncles. Once the great-grandchild due in July is born, that will be four born within 2.5 years - pretty sure that will be the new “kids table”
As a childless person, who is not extremely social, the ONLY time I would dare intervene is if there is an immediate safety risk, such as running with scissors, falling, traffic. And that’s only with children of my friends. Other children? They go their way, I go mine.
Somebody wants me to watch their child, I ask the rules, and we’re fine. But to tell someone else’s child that they are behaving poorly, when the mother is right there?
As an only child, I never had built-in playmates, so when my parents would go to dinner with their friends, and they didn’t want / couldn’t get a baby sitter, I would go along. I have fond memories of sitting with at the table with all four adults. After dinner I would hang out with them, or go into their study, which had a comfy reading chair and a television.
How well did I behave? This couple credits my parents and me with their decision to have a child, in what was supposed to be a childfree marriage. That baby was the first one I visited in the hospital, when I was 10.
I am really glad that my parents house has the space to put together such a long table (the pictured one from Kayaker is a bit small 
), as the extended dining table would take over half of the living room.
I think there’s only one rule here. Be kind. I am glad my parents didn’t use a kids table, but I think a kids table can be useful, depending on the event.
Sure, we had children’s tables growing up when it made sense due to numbers. One side, it meant eating in the living room, which, frankly, was generally the better place to be, and so even the teens ate in there. In the other, the only place we’d fit was out on carport, which was fine most of the year, though flies could be annoying.
At the house with the carport, we kids always ate with the adults when there was room–but always in the kitchen, as eating anything other than the occasional candies was not allowed on the carpet. At the other house, we just ate wherever we wanted if it wasn’t a special meal, which often still meant eating in the living room in the more comfy chairs and watching the TV.
But it’s been a long time since we’ve done any of that.
Die_Capacitrix: After dinner I would hang out with them, or go into their study, which had a comfy reading chair and a television…I think there’s only one rule here. Be kind.
::tears:: See, that sounds nice. You were welcome, and treated like a guest, not an intruder, and it worked out for everyone. People who are determined not to get along with children often create their own problems.
On further reflection:
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I don’t think anyone with a lick of sense or manners would really have implemented the Paper Plate Unwelcoming Committee. Two of Miss Manners’ cardinal rules are “Don’t respond to rudeness with more rudeness,” and “A good host/ess always puts hir guests at ease.” Either the hostess would have had a revelation while boiling the hot dog: “Hey, this is gonna make me look like a gigantic bitch, which is not the impression I want to make,” or her DH would have said, “Honey, what’s this paper plate for?..Well, don’t DO that! I have to work with this girl’s dad [or mom], and if you deliberately make her uncomfortable, it’s gonna be real uncomfortable for me at work from now on!” The most likely scenario, if the teen had shown up, would have been what several people suggested: she would get pizza and soft drinks in the den, away from the action.
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What was this, anyway – “Father Knows Best”? “Honey, I need you to put on a formal dinner party for people you’ve met only in passing or not at all. And don’t screw up or you’ll lose me the Henderson account.” There was a term for that on Etiquette Hell: Volun-told.
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I wonder if anyone in that thread ever looked back, as I’m doing now, and thought, “Wow, the things we used to stress about before Covid…”
Right. That sort of behavior would be a great way to be made a pariah at work from then on. And a boss would think, well that person has absolutely no empathy for anyone, I can’t promote that person to a management position.
I think “the kids table” often looms larger in memory than it ever did in real life. In most extended families, there might be a window of 4-6 years when a clutch of cousins were in the right age range and where they represented about the right sized group to be spun off, given the available seating. If you are one of that clutch, those 6 years that the kids table is a thing seems like an Era, a hallowed tradition. But for the adults, 4-6 years is a phase.
I come from a huge Mormon family, with 34 grandchildren (my generation) all in about 20 + change years. Kids raised themselves more and were expected to not bother adults at parties.
Now, here in Taiwan, the adults outnumber the children and there is more tolerance for children talking.