But this is exactly my point: no one can prove thay they are not a homophobe. It is an impossible standard. The arguement can not move forward until the person accused has bent thmselves over backwards to prove that they are not a homophobe. Furthermore, accusing people of beong homophobe early in an arguement sets up this situation where anyone coming into the discussion has to somehow prove that they are not a homophobe to the satisfaction of hastur before they can get involved in the debate. It is taking control of the whole damn thread and using social stigmas–not reason–to win an arguement.
Furthermore, the idea that thinking that in one particular, atypical school gay students were getting preferential treatment somehow equals homophobia–a vile charge–is ridiculous. Its as if I said ‘Blacks get better service at the service station on the corner, the owner is a member of the Nation of Islam’ and you called me a racist. Now I might be wrong in my facts, and I might need to be corrected (owner is not a member of the nation of Islam, he only has those "White America is the Great Satan’ bumperstickers cause they sell well, I build three incidents that I saw into a pattern that dosn’t really exisit, whatever) but there is nothing particularly bigoted about thinking that a group that is normally oppressed could recieve special treatment in isolated pockets.
I know. That’s what makes your claim about “trying to talk to me” even more laughable. You had already shown the truth by posting the entire exchange.
Harassing what “others”?
As rose is a rose is a rose.
Another hypocritical statement from Hastur.
So I am guessing you aren’t taking me up on the opportunity to bow, eh? Want the last word? Go ahead, have it. It seems like something that is very important to you. If you are enjoying this little exchange and want it to continue, let me know. I’ll keep playing. It’s cheap entertainment.
I would agree that I find the technique of making someone prove that they are not a homphobe, an unfair one.
It shouldn’t work that way.
I would hope that the standard would be that we would not want to falsely accuse and slander anyone. Therefore we should not make the accusation lightly.
It’s not up to the person to prove they are not homophobic, or bigoted. The onus of proof is on the accuser. The accusation should not be made without firm and compelling evidence.
It was more than just that single remark. december also cited a source that quoted the American Family Association and Phyllis Schafely. He did admit there was bias, but he still saw it as being true. The AFA is a zealous group on the Christian Right which is only a bit nicer than Fred Phelps. Schafely(which I might be misspelling) is a massively conservative republican who has been spewing anti-gay rhetoric for over twenty years, even though she has a gay child.
It’s the “you are who you hang with” thing. That he could cite that as being factual when it was not only biased, but partially based on those who think that homosexuality is an illness/sin does and did strike me as homophobic.
I did say that I provided my evidence first before I expected theirs. That does not leave the burden on them. Or at least they know where the perception came from.
Fair? I know you will see this as a semantic argument, but I find it odd that you would believe in fair. It seems beneath you.
Hastur – do you know for a fact that the figures quoted by december aren’t factual? If they are, then it’s irrelevant where they came from. If they’re not, then december has a problem with the data, not with homophobia. Unless you’re suggesting he helped Phyllis Schlafley administer the survey in question. Then I’d agree with you.
But we all have to winnow through biased sources and try to extract the truth from the propaganda. And then we go out in public (or the SDMB) and we air what we think the truth is, and we listen to how other people’s interpretations go, and thier reasons for them, and we weigh all this new information and we recompile it into a new worldview. That process stops short if you risk being labeled with a vile, vile term because you made a bad judgement.
Furthmore, you haven’t addressed my main point, which is that you use the social stigma of being labeled a homophobe to control an arguement–the only people that can participate are the non-homophobes (everything a homophobe says is tainted wiht there bias and there ulterior motive of proving homosexuality is wrong), and only Hastur can decide who counts as a homophobe and who dosen’t.
It’s difficult to reply to a post that is filled with non sequitirs that don’t actually relate to anything I said, but I’ll try.
What are you talking about? I never asked you to explain “why” anything. I said I find your behavior amazing, ironic, and alarming. There was no “why” there. And you explained “why” what? Why it’s okay for you to call people homophobes at the drop of a hat? It’s not. Why it’s okay for you to insult anyone who has the temerity to disagree with you? It’s not. In any event, and as should be manifest by now, I don’t give a shit why you do it; I just wish you’d stop.
I said:
To which you reply:
Let’s review: I never said you should “get off your high horse.” I said that it was stupid (well, I didn’t say “stupid” but I’ll say it now) for you to incessantly harp on the injustices visited up homosexuals and then when someone else says they think you are being unjust to then say – and this is a quote – “fair and unfair are the arguments of a child. There is no such thing as fair. Suck it up, grow up, and move on. Life does not always go one’s way because it isn’t fair. The sooner you understand that, the happier you will be.”
Why is that surpassingly stupid? Because the next time you legitimately complain that you are not treated fairly or equally or equitably due to your sexuality, anyone could throw those words back in your face: “Don’t have equal rights? Well, there’s no such thing as fair, HASTUR, so suck it up, grow up, and move on.” If you complain about inequity – and you do, and legitimately so – than it is hypocritical for you to dismiss anyone else’s complaints about inequity with “life isn’t fair; suck it up.” You might go look up “hypocrisy” again – a word you’re so found of throwing around (among others) – since this would actually be a good example of it. If you truly believe that life is not fair and we should all just shut up and deal with it, then shut the fuck up about the difficulties of being marginalized and just deal with it. As I’ve already stated, I think pretty much any other gay person around you could make a compelling argument for at least pursuing fairness and do it both better and less offensively than you. Nice capitalization of FUCKING, though.
I was trying to think of a substantive response to this when I realized that there’s no point in attempting to substantively respond to something so meaningless.
Fair enough.
Oh, boo hoo – HASTUR called me “bitchy.” It seems in your mind that most of the other people here are bitchy too – no wait! At least two are “cunts.” You continue to spread insult and invective with a total lack of regard to whether it’s warranted or not, and you continue to refuse to acknowledge that anyone posting here might have an actual point that might cause you to stop and think for a minute about what you say and how it comes across. Have you read some of the things you’ve posted here? Do you realize how you sound? Do you care?
Start a post with a confusing, non-responsive non sequitir, end the post with a confusing, non-responsive non sequitir – at least you get points for symmetry.
Have fun continuing to insult people and “defend” yourself in such a manner and by such means as to only confirm people’s opinions of you. As for me, I think I’ll take G.K. Chesterton’s advice: “Never wrestle with a pig; you both get dirty and the pig likes it.”
HASTUR, this exchange made me laugh out loud, it so nicely encapsulates your willingness to take offense, intended or not, and your inability, intentional or not, to take a point. I think it sums up your posting style nicely, though to be truly vintage you should have thrown in a “fuckhead” or two.
Wow. And she manages to hit Gaudere’s Law at the same time while making a remark about my words. It is NON SEQUITUR.
Equitable and fair are two different things. Equity is achieving parity. Fair is not only childish, it is so subjective as to be pointless. What one person sees as fair another does not.
I will stop wrestling with you then so I don’t accumulate any more mud.
And I question if you read my posts in their entirety or just skim for things to bitch about. I apologized to Anthracite and was quite contrite. Note, I said I was wrong where she was concerned. Ignored that, DIDN’T you?
Wow. And she manages to hit Gaudere’s Law at the same time while making a remark about my words. It is NON SEQUITUR.
Equitable and fair are two different things. Equity is achieving parity. Fair is not only childish, it is so subjective as to be pointless. What one person sees as fair another does not.
I will stop wrestling with you then so I don’t accumulate any more mud.
And I question if you read my posts in their entirety or just skim for things to bitch about. I apologized to Anthracite and was quite contrite. Note, I said I was wrong where she was concerned. Ignored that, DIDN’T you?
Um… fuckhead is not my normal or usual term. How interesting that you know me, and yet attribute to me that which is inaccurate.
Amazing that you can be so insightful with others and so openminded(at least in your mind), and yet you come off as condescending and patronizing towards me.
Why don’t you extract your head from your ass, re-read my posts and then comment. Or might that shatter your image of me, and thus your argument?
Lots of things are unfair, and life is unequal. You’ll get no argument or complaint for me over those facts.
But whether one deals fairly or not is a matter of personal choice and strength of character.
So yes, I believe in fairness, and aspire to it, and expect it in those with whom I choose to deal.
Which is all well and good, but life hasn’t been so unfortunate to me as to put these high-minded ideas of mine to the test under duress.
I don’t. When I read in the preface for the Princess Bride by William Goldman, he showed how he learned that life wasn’t fair. It was an epiphany for me.
I realize that I did expect life to be fair up until that point, that it made me miserable, and that it wasn’t worth holding on to. I find that accepting that life isn’t fair to be liberating.
As fair is subjective at best, I feel that leaving it behind allows one to focus on what is important. This also goes along with the fact that the majority of people I deal with who claim things aren’t fair usually mean they did not get their way. YMMV.
I thought about explaining this to him myself but then realized he would perceive it as an attack (which it wouldn’t be), but would someone please explain the “lead a horse to water” proverb to Hastur?
For God’s sake, HASTUR, if you’re not going to respond to the substance of the entire passage you cut and paste, the least you can do is consult a dictionary before you post.
From Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary (10th ed.): “Fair: Marked by impartiality and honesty; free from self-interest, prejudice, or favoritism. Syn: Equitable.”
From dictionary.com: "Equitable: Marked by or having equity; just and impartial. See Synonyms at “fair”.
From The New Little Oxford Dictionary (1986): “Equitable: Fair; just; valid in equity.”
From Black’s Law Dictionary (6th ed.): “Fair: Having the qualities of impartiality and honesty; free from prejudice, favoritism, and self-interest. Just; equitable; even-handed; equal, as between conflicting interests.”
And for your assignment, look up the idiom “to split hairs” and the verb “quibble.”
I am on record as thinking (a) you take offense too easiliy and (b) you insult others too freely. If you read your posts in this thread to date – not my posts but your own – including taking offense that someone might apply a common proverb to you (“you can lead a horse to water . . .”) because you perceive them to be equating you to an actual horse (and leaving aside how intelligent that makes you seem) and your referring to me as “bitchy” and “with my head up my ass,” why do you imagine that reading your posts would “shatter” my image of you, as set forth in (a) and (b), above? I’m truly curious.
But rather than answer, feel free to insult me again – and then wonder why I persist in having such a low opinion of you. Or you could roll your eyes again; that’s helpful.
