Heeeeeeeeey FATTIES

[CarnalK]

I think there is a wide spectrum between habit forming and physical addiction and I’ll grant that “food addiction” would be on that spectrum. I’m still not willing to concede it’s on par with cocaine or heroin. Many activities, like for instance shopping, raise dopamine levels. If someone runs up thousands of dollars in credit card debt are you going automatically assume addiction drove them to it or that they simply couldn’t control their impulses? Or is it the same thing?

But regardless, that doesn’t really bolster the argument of people saying they are glandularly predisposed to be big or don’t have time to lose weight. If anything it raises suspicions that those are merely excuses to defend their habit.

eta:

@Max Torque

And another thing for the record: the little Torqueling is absolutely awesome about food. She’s the only kid I’ve ever encountered who we have to tell, “No more green beans until you eat some meat!” At age 3 (well, she’s turning 3 in a month), she’ll eat an entire zucchini by herself and ask for more. She once ate half a container of snacking tomatoes before we got home from the store. Hard to believe, crazy-skinny as she is, that she has my genes.

Well, if she is eating healthy, I really can’t see why you said that you don’t have time to do the same.

[Spice_Weasel]

@CarnalK

I think there is a wide spectrum between habit forming and physical addiction and I’ll grant that “food addiction” would be on that spectrum. I’m still not willing to concede it’s on par with cocaine or heroin. Many activities, like for instance shopping, raise dopamine levels. If someone runs up thousands of dollars in credit card debt are you going automatically assume addiction drove them to it or that they simply couldn’t control their impulses? Or is it the same thing?

Well, I think shopping addiction is actually a recognized psychological problem, but I have no idea what the neuroscience is on that. I’m not a neuropsychologist, I’m just interested in this subject.

But regardless, that doesn’t really bolster the argument of people saying they are glandularly predisposed to be big or don’t have time to lose weight. If anything it raises suspicions that those are merely excuses to defend their habit.

Oh, I absolutely agree that excuses really don’t help anything. I’m a full time graduate student with a 24-hour weekly internship who told myself all last semester that I didn’t have time to lose weight. The correct explanation would have been, ‘‘It’s not a priority right now.’’ Unfortunately, my overeating and lack of exercise made me gain weight, exacerbated my depression and made my health a priority pretty quickly.

I have lost 8 pounds so far this year though I am in fact busier this semester than I was last semester. Why? I made it a priority. You don’t have to change everything overnight, just take it one step at a time. I began by exercising every day for a minimum of 15 minutes. Some days 15 minutes really is all I have, but through that and calorie tracking I’ve been consistently losing about 1 pound a week. As far as total pounds lost from peak weight, I’m nearing the 60 pounds lost mark. I’d like to think I know a little something about what factors go into obesity and how those factors are successfully addressed.

So yes, believe me, when people say they don’t have time, I am suspicious. The freakin’ president of the U.S. made time for daily exercise during his political campaign for goodness’ sake. Just be honest and say it’s not your priority.

But having said that, I think people are justified in not making their weight a priority. I was once a severely depressed individual on a medication that significantly altered my metabolism (either that or made me eat more) because I gained 50 pounds and reached a weight of 210. I did not give a good god damn about my weight, and the reason is because my mental health was a much higher priority. I could barely get out of bed and was suicidal every day. I didn’t have the luxury of vanity or even really giving a shit about myself in even the most abstract way. My problem was not laziness, it was severe mental illness. So I think you have to be willing to take people’s circumstances into account and let them evaluate their own priorities. It would have been pretty moronic of me to focus what little energy I had into losing weight rather than restoring my mental health.

(Of course, the two work in tandem very often. Exercise and good nutrition both have significant mental health benefits IME.)

[martu]

@olivesmarch4th

In sum, the idea that the obesity epidemic is a result of some moral failing on behalf of the individual is bullshit. In fact, I’m confident that most serious scholars of obesity point to environmental and physiological factors rather than lack of willpower. Also complete and utter bullshit is the notion that accepting the scientific consensus on this matter is the same thing as refusing to take responsibility for the problem.

Why can’t it be a moral failure? I agree with you it seems there are factors that have contributed to make it easier for people to be obese but that doesn’t excuse someone who is obese does it?

For the record I can’t make my mind up after reading this (very funny it has to be said) thread.

[Spice_Weasel]

@martu

Why can’t it be a moral failure? I agree with you it seems there are factors that have contributed to make it easier for people to be obese but that doesn’t excuse someone who is obese does it?

For the record I can’t make my mind up after reading this (very funny it has to be said) thread.

Well, I think the idea that obesity is a moral failing is about as credible as the idea that poverty is a moral failing. To be sure, some people are fat because they are lazy, just as some people are poor because they are lazy. But when you have large demographic trends over time shifting pretty dramatically, when you can see the ways in which social welfare policy correlates with poverty rates and the ways in which environmental changes correlate with obesity rates, it becomes clear that something else is probably going on.

If Americans are becoming lazier (and thus more poor and more fat) then why do American households today work more hours than ever before? Why do we work more hours on average than most industrialized countries yet have the highest rate of obesity? How did human nature change so rapidly over the course of 20 or 30 years? Which is more likely – that human beings are more gluttonous and lazy than they used to be, or that something changed in our environment? Where does the evidence lie? What do the rising rates of obesity in countries that have begun to Westernize indicate? Did those Asians suddenly get lazy and gluttonous too, or did something about their environment change?

Keep in mind, my understanding of human nature is grounded in my interest in social psychology. We are weaker and more vulnerable as a species than people would like to think. We do stupid, irrational shit all the time, and we are impulse-driven. Even the very best of us, the most successful, the hardest working among us, we do stupid-ass irrational shit against our own best interest on a fairly regular basis. I believe this is because our environment no longer fits our nature. At one time, for example, the brain developed a mechanism that went wild for sugar and fat, because those things were rare, precious commodities and our survival depended on being gluttonous with them whenever we encountered them. Nowadays we are surrounded by the things are brain is hard-wired to eat with abandon. Why, in this context, is obesity at all surprising?

[Spice_Weasel]

As regards the ‘‘moral failing’’ – do you really want to call being fat a moral issue? Whose business is it whether an individual’s health is or is not a priority in their lives and why? It just seems like a stupid thing to judge someone for. You don’t know their story or their strengths. Some of the best people I know are morbidly obese. I am concerned for their health but not for their character.

There is a strong tendency in our culture to conflate fatness as a health concern with fatness as a vanity concern, and this tendency is probably one of the chief reasons people are so defensive about their weight. If there wasn’t such an enormous stigma attached to being fat, perhaps people would be willing to take on more responsibility for it, in the same way that the enormous stigma against the mentally ill often prevents them from getting the treatment they need.

The idea that fat is a moral problem is vanity and bigotry. The idea that fat is a public health concern is realism and compassion. I think the first step to beating this problem is shifting that attitude as much as we can toward one that is more likely to assist those who feel helpless, for whatever reason, to make positive changes in their lives.

[martu]

@olivesmarch4th

Well, I think the idea that obesity is a moral failing is about as credible as the idea that poverty is a moral failing. To be sure, some people are fat because they are lazy, just as some people are poor because they are lazy. But when you have large demographic trends over time shifting pretty dramatically, when you can see the ways in which social welfare policy correlates with poverty rates and the ways in which environmental changes correlate with obesity rates, it becomes clear that something else is probably going on.

If Americans are becoming lazier (and thus more poor and more fat) then why do American households today work more hours than ever before? Why do we work more hours on average than most industrialized countries yet have the highest rate of obesity? How did human nature change so rapidly over the course of 20 or 30 years? Which is more likely – that human beings are more gluttonous and lazy than they used to be, or that something changed in our environment? Where does the evidence lie? What do the rising rates of obesity in countries that have begun to Westernize indicate? Did those Asians suddenly get lazy and gluttonous too, or did something about their environment change?

Keep in mind, my understanding of human nature is grounded in my interest in social psychology. We are weaker and more vulnerable as a species than people would like to think. We do stupid, irrational shit all the time, and we are impulse-driven. Even the very best of us, the most successful, the hardest working among us, we do stupid-ass irrational shit against our own best interest on a fairly regular basis. I believe this is because our environment no longer fits our nature. At one time, for example, the brain developed a mechanism that went wild for sugar and fat, because those things were rare, precious commodities and our survival depended on being gluttonous with them whenever we encountered them. Nowadays we are surrounded by the things are brain is hard-wired to eat with abandon. Why, in this context, is obesity at all surprising?

A lot of us manage to say no to the brain when it goes wild for such things why can’t everyone else? There is the moral failure and I don’t think you’ve addressed it really. One could argue that racism is part of human nature, well tribalism at least, and most of us have managed to work out that’s not a good idea why not eating too much?

ETA: Posted before I saw your above post.

[martu]

@olivesmarch4th

As regards the ‘‘moral failing’’ – do you really want to call being fat a moral issue? Whose business is it whether an individual’s health is or is not a priority in their lives and why? It just seems like a stupid thing to judge someone for. You don’t know their story or their strengths. Some of the best people I know are morbidly obese. I am concerned for their health but not for their character.

There is a strong tendency in our culture to conflate fatness as a health concern with fatness as a vanity concern, and this tendency is probably one of the chief reasons people are so defensive about their weight. If there wasn’t such an enormous stigma attached to being fat, perhaps people would be willing to take on more responsibility for it, in the same way that the enormous stigma against the mentally ill often prevents them from getting the treatment they need.

The idea that fat is a moral problem is vanity and bigotry. The idea that fat is a public health concern is realism and compassion. I think the first step to beating this problem is shifting that attitude as much as we can toward one that is more likely to assist those who feel helpless, for whatever reason, to make positive changes in their lives.

Not quite just ‘vanity and bigotry’ when you consider that a fat person is using up way more resources (food obviously probably healthcare too) than someone who eats sensibly and keeps in shape. Isn’t that immoral in this day and age? How much money is spent on obesity related illnesses in the US? How many rainforest cut down so that chunky can get his triple whopper?

[CarnalK]

@olivesmarch4th

In sum, the idea that the obesity epidemic is a result of some moral failing on behalf of the individual is bullshit. In fact, I’m confident that most serious scholars of obesity point to environmental and physiological factors rather than lack of willpower.

I’m a little curious what the word “willpower” means to you if not to resist the effects of those factors.

[KarlGauss]

@CarnalK

I’m a little curious what the word “willpower” means to you if not to resist the effects of those factors.

Fine, but with a huge 'BUT". Depending on the roll of the dice, “those factors” can be relatively mild, in small amounts so to speak, or very, very significant, very powerful. Who’s gonna have an easier time to resist?

And that’s really my point. Sure, ultimately, if you don’t eat, everyone will lose weight. But it’s a LOT harder for some than others, and not because of their weaker will, but because so much “physiology” has been stacked against them.

[MeanOldLady]

So is Guns going to return to this thread or not? Because it was a lot funnier when she was here. I’ll also accept ivn1188.

[tacoloco]

@MeanOldLady

So is Guns going to return to this thread or not? Because it was a lot funnier when she was here. I’ll also accept ivn1188.

I suspect she shot her gun and is now satisfied.

[Spice_Weasel]

Not quite just ‘vanity and bigotry’ when you consider that a fat person is using up way more resources (food obviously probably healthcare too) than someone who eats sensibly and keeps in shape. Isn’t that immoral in this day and age? How much money is spent on obesity related illnesses in the US? How many rainforest cut down so that chunky can get his triple whopper?

Given the evidence, it doesn’t make sense to me to blame individuals for a problem that is demographically tied to one’s social environment. Smokers use up resources too, and there is no doubt a stigma against them, but the fact of their addiction is indisputable.

IIRC, there are three human behaviors that have a very high resistance to current evidence-based treatments.

1. Smoking
2. Overeating
3. Anorexia

The long-term prognosis for any of these is very poor. I find it very problematic that in the absence of good treatments for these problems we would stigmatize and blame people who have them.

@CarnalK

I’m a little curious what the word “willpower” means to you if not to resist the effects of those factors.

I think the generally understood definition of willpower is being able to resist temptation in the moment. As in, you pass a Cinnabon store, you smell the delicious Cinnabon, and you walk on by. Willpower.

But everything we know about overeating indicates that the moment a food addict smells that Cinnabon, the battle is lost. You’ve already decided you’re going to eat it even while you’re arguing with yourself about whether or not you should.

To successfully battle overeating, you basically have to change the whole structure of your life. You plan your meals in advance. You deliberately avoid the Cinnabon store, and if you have to pass it, you make sure to eat about 200 calories before your trip so that you aren’t hungry. You shift your budget to accommodate more expensive, higher-quality foods. You look up online menus before visiting a restaurant and count all the calories in the meal you are going to have to avoid going over your calorie budget. You stop frequenting restaurants that don’t offer nutrition information. You stop eating out. You invest in a food scale and always measure your food portions exactly. If you find you are exercising more than usual, you calculate your new base metabolic rate to make sure you increase your calories enough to perpetuate weight loss but not so much you eat more than you burn.

It is a royal fucking pain in the ass, and it is difficult to sustain in the long term.

That is true of any habit you have to change, though. Our current knowledge of learning theory indicates that old habits NEVER die-- those neural pathways, those automatic ways of doing the unhealthy thing, are always there. The only way to stop doing that thing is to put a new habit in its place, and it is going to take a long-ass time before that new behavior becomes automatic. You are always vulnerable to relapse, ALWAYS, even after 20 years of doing that new thing, because that old unhealthy behavioral pathway is just lurking there, waiting to take over when you let your guard down. Even a subtle change of context can trigger the old habit.

So overcoming obesity is a constant pain in the ass battle that requires lots of time and energy and investment. There is a shit-ton of failure involved, with relapses lasting days or months, and social support is fundamental. If you’ve got a family or friends eating junk food, your statistical odds of failure are extremely high.

I consider that to be more than willpower. To me it is more of a lifelong pain in the ass time-consuming project that requires hours of planning and which offers increasingly little positive reinforcement. The more weight you lose, the harder it is to lose weight and the less the benefits are immediately felt.

And remember, I DON’T HAVE A FOOD ADDICTION and that’s what losing weight is to me. I can pass by that Cinnabon store more often than not, or I can eat a quarter of the Cinnabon rather than the whole thing and walk away. My problem is just a bad habit and it still required a complete overhaul of the way I live my life.

[brewha]

Wow, I was late getting to this thread, and it has literally taken me three days to read it. I’m not that slow of a reader - I just don’t have a lot of spare internet time these days.

I just wanted to share my experience. Around the same time, I quit smoking and started working at my first job out of college. The non-smoking made me crave snacks more often, and the full time job all but necessitated that I sit on my ass for 10 hrs a day.

Before these events I was a fit 200 lbs. Trust me, that’s fit at 6’5" - well within the BMI. Over the course of a year, my weight slowly started increasing. When I saw the scale at 247, I decided that there’s no way I’m going to hit 250.

A buddy of mine, who had lost alot of weight, told me to try fitday.com
It’s a free website where you can track your calories easily. And, it puts you on a course and timeline to reach your goals.

It turns out that at that weight, I had to take in 3400 calories a day. I couldn’t believe it, but a bag of vending machine chips is 300 calories and I was snacking on two or three of those a day. Also, I found out that alcohol is a huge source of empty calories. I was probably taking in 2000 calories a week in beer.

So, I cut my caloric intake to 2000 calories a day. It really didn’t take a huge change in my diet - just a bunch of little ones. For one, I started eating breakfast. I’d eat about 300 calories - usually just a bagel with fake butter. But, that kept me from being starved when lunch came around, and I’d have a 700 calorie lunch. I used to bring two deli meat sandwiches and a bag of chips for lunch. I switched it to one sandwich with a bag of raw carrots or cauliflower with light ranch dressing. I’d also bring some extra veggies for an afternoon snack to keep me out of the vending machine.

Then, I’d eat a big supper - close to 1000 calories.

I’ll be honest, the first week sucked. I was hungry alot and I never really felt full. But, after sticking to it - and never binging - my stomach shrunk and it took less to feel full. And, once that happened, my measly 700 calorie lunch made me feel full and satisfied.

I lost 50 lbs over the next 6 months. I reached my goal of seeing the lead number on the scale as a one for the first time since highschool.

But, here’s the cool part. To maintain my current weight (which sits between 200-205), I can eat 2600 calories a day. After 6 months of my 2000 calorie limit, 2600 is cake! I’ve been maintaining my current weight for over a year and it really takes very little effort once you’re used to it.

Oh, and protip? Bacardi and Diet cola is tastly and only about 60 calories a drink. Most everything else (beer included) is about 100 calories a drink.

[alice_in_wonderland]

@KarlGauss

But it’s a LOT harder for some than others, and not because of their weaker will, but because so much “physiology” has been stacked against them.

I feel compelled to point out that it’s probably a LOT harder for some people to not become addicted to crack cocaine than others due to physiology; however, those people don’t get a pass for using crack. In fact, if a person posted in this thread (or another where the post would actually make sense) that they were addicted to crack, and smoked it every day 10 times, and they had a stressful job and a young family to support, and they could either choose between quitting crack or spending time with their family, no one would buy it for a second and tell them to smarten the hell up, get help, get in NA, cut that shit out, ASAP.

If people choose to view food as an addictive substance such as alcohol or crack or whatever (and I’m not arguing that they shouldn’t), I’m afraid that those addicted to it should be held to the same standard as other addicts and be called on their crap if they choose to post it here, or spew it in person. If you are addicted to food to the point where your health is at risk, and you fear a heart attack and you’re 200 lbs overweight you need to see a physician, join a program, get in OEA and cut that shit out ASAP and not blame ‘skinny fuckers’ for making you feel bad about yourself.

And frankly, I think being a crack addict IS a bit of a moral failing, just the same as getting clean despite the difficulty is a bit of a moral victory (as well as a physical one).

Really, you can’t have your cake and eat it too (ahem). Either food is an addictive substance and some people are junkies and should be viewed as such including all of the stuff that goes along with being a junkie, or it’s not and overeaters really should just suck it up and eat less. You can’t have it both ways.

[Dangerosa]

@KarlGauss

Fine, but with a huge 'BUT". Depending on the roll of the dice, “those factors” can be relatively mild, in small amounts so to speak, or very, very significant, very powerful. Who’s gonna have an easier time to resist?

And that’s really my point. Sure, ultimately, if you don’t eat, everyone will lose weight. But it’s a LOT harder for some than others, and not because of their weaker will, but because so much “physiology” has been stacked against them.

Everyone has their demons. Some (most) of them are less visible than obesity. And in that respect the obese do get the short end of the stick.

On the other hand, everyone has their demons. I suspect that most people have something they can relate to, that its just plain old HARD for them to conquer, where external factors plus their own weaknesses combine to make a lot of willpower necessary.

On a population scale though, those initial graphs are frightening. We are NOT making progress as a nation on conquering this particular demon - we seem to be feeding it and allowing it to grow. It is a very visible issue, that has real effects beyond the individual, and yet, we need the individuals to take responsibility.

(I’ll get on my high horse on consumer debt if someone wants to start that thread.)

[MeanOldLady]

@brewha

Also, I found out that alcohol is a huge source of empty calories. I was probably taking in 2000 calories a week in beer.

I was going to say I’d lose 20 lbs if I laid off on the bourbon, but perhaps not!

[Digital_Stimulus]

@olivesmarch4th

I think the generally understood definition of willpower is being able to resist temptation in the moment…

Clearly that’s part of it, but I don’t think it’s the entirety of it. Rather, I think the “generally understood definition” of willpower has to include persistent and extended discipline over time.

In other words, exactly what the remainder of your post described.

[CarnalK]

@olivesmarch4th

But everything we know about overeating indicates that the moment a food addict smells that Cinnabon, the battle is lost. You’ve already decided you’re going to eat it even while you’re arguing with yourself about whether or not you should.

Well, then this food addiction is pretty unique, because no other addictions have this fatalist attitude. I’ve known former alcoholics who can actually walk in to a bar or go to a party where drinks are served and not fall off the wagon. In fact, many treatment programs don’t even preach complete abstinence. But if a food addict smells anything he has to go over to the counter, pull out his wallet. He is like a puppet on a string?

I agree with Digital Stimulus that your understanding of willpower is a little too limited.

[bup]

@CarnalK

In fact, many treatment programs don’t even preach complete abstinence.

[hijack] :dubious: [/hijack]

[Spice_Weasel]

@CarnalK

Well, then this food addiction is pretty unique, because no other addictions have this fatalist attitude. I’ve known former alcoholics who can actually walk in to a bar or go to a party where drinks are served and not fall off the wagon. In fact, many treatment programs don’t even preach complete abstinence. But if a food addict smells anything he has to go over to the counter, pull out his wallet. He is like a puppet on a string?

Our brains make decisions before we realize we have made them all the time. We are subconscious creatures. There is a ton of evidence for this, not only as regards addiction. Descartes’ Error by neurologist Antonio Damasio describes this evidence in detail if you’re interested, and the book I mentioned, The End of Overeating, contains a piece on it as well.

I really didn’t mean to say that people cannot say no to direct temptation, I only meant to say that it’s harder and therefore not very realistic for most people. The bottom line is (and perhaps I was not nuanced enough on this point), when you are directly exposed to temptation, the statistical likelihood of relapse rises significantly. There are a number of factors that work for or against a person struggling to overcome an addiction and access is a pretty huge one. That’s why people cohabiting with junk food fiends don’t do so well at losing weight.

I agree with Digital Stimulus that your understanding of willpower is a little too limited.

Okay, I’m probably wrong about that. I’ve read a number of articles over the last couple of years that emphasize lifestyle change vs. willpower, so I guess I’m confused as to what willpower is.

Here’s an interesting article on willpower with a sort of funny conclusion. Increasing your sugar intake increases your self-control! Kind of a Catch-22 for someone trying to eat healthy, eh?