Heeeeeeeeey FATTIES

[Dangerosa]

@SteveG1

I suppose this will make me look like a selfish bastard, but why should I be penalized (taxes and government control of my eating habits/choices) because someone else has a problem? I can and do maintain a sympathetic and tolerant stance, I am not a “fatty hater”, but just no.

And that, in a nutshell, is why this has been a political non-starter.

If we lived in China where we didn’t get a voice in our government, we’d tax junk food (and take away plastic bags). Or simply forbid it. But around here, to do something politically unpopular, a bunch of elected representatives have to decide they don’t want their jobs any longer.
ETA: The other problem you have is that a lot of the high caloric foods out there are cultural - because they are cheap and they provided traditionally needed calories for hard labor. From corned beef to ham hocks. Lots of potatos. Bread and pasta. That isn’t junk food, but it isn’t food to base a sedentary diet around. Maybe you can tax the chips. But the moment you start taxing the ham for ham and beans…

[Kimstu]

@Sidney

So, where is Shot From Guns, anyway?

Back under her bridge, no doubt. Have you noticed how much more substantive and less gratuitously hostile the discussion in this thread has become since she took herself off?

Of course, I suppose that makes it less appropriate for the Pit, but I’m certainly enjoying it more.

[CarnalK]

@bup

[hijack] :dubious: [/hijack]

Well, I did a little more searching, but many of my hits are for-pay journal articles. I did find one abstract that was pretty explicit:
Controlled drinking and controlled drug use as outcome goals in British treatment services

Consistent with several decades of research on treatment outcome, natural recovery, and harm reduction, there is widespread and ongoing support for controlled or moderate consumption as an outcome goal by clients presenting to British treatment services with alcohol and drug problems, but such support is moderated by the clients’ severity and ultimate goal choice.

Controlled-drinking advocates challenge use of abstinence model in treatment of addiction(pdf file)

Two major addiction treatment organizations in Canada the Canadian Centre for Substance Abuse (CCSA) and the 43-year-old Addiction Research Foundation (ARF) reject the disease model and claim that for many people, total abstinence is not necessary to recover from addiction. The ARF offers programs for “reduced drinking,” seen as a supportable option for problem drinkers who are unwilling to accept abstinence as a lifelong goal. For the ARF, abstinence is often a last resort when alcohol consumption is affecting the person physically; at that point, all sources agree, abstinence is the only course.

You can find more by searching for “controlled drinking goals” or “non abstinence goals”. So while this may be a bit of a hijack, I think it has some bearing here. As Max Torque said earlier, you can’t actually quit eating like you can quit smoking.

[Malthus]

@CarnalK

Well, I did a little more searching, but many of my hits are for-pay journal articles. I did find one abstract that was pretty explicit:
Controlled drinking and controlled drug use as outcome goals in British treatment services

Controlled-drinking advocates challenge use of abstinence model in treatment of addiction(pdf file)
You can find more by searching for “controlled drinking goals” or “non abstinence goals”. So while this may be a bit of a hijack, I think it has some bearing here. As Max Torque said earlier, you can’t actually quit eating like you can quit smoking.

Interesting stuff. My own tango with addiction (in my case, smoking - smoke free for half a decade!) leads me to believe that in some cases at least, only abstinence can work: hell would freeze over before I could quit smoking by “cutting down”. But I’m open to the possibility that not all addictions work the same way, and obviously as everyone has said you can’t quit eating.

[Dangerosa]

@Malthus

Interesting stuff. My own tango with addiction (in my case, smoking - smoke free for half a decade!) leads me to believe that in some cases at least, only abstinence can work: hell would freeze over before I could quit smoking by “cutting down”. But I’m open to the possibility that not all addictions work the same way, and obviously as everyone has said you can’t quit eating.

Another hard addiction to break is spending for the same reason. Its pretty hard to quit cold turkey.

But I’m pretty sure there aren’t chemicals in shopping like there are in tobacco or heroin that trigger addiction centers in the brain. Unless the malls have started pumping it in along with the muzak.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Enderw24

In my case, I’m fat because of Ren Faire. They have chocolate covered lard on a stick. ON A STICK! My friends, Ren Faire only comes around once every 20 fortnights and by God if you don’t carpe Crisco, then someone else will instead.

looks for local Ren Faires

[Malthus]

@Dangerosa

Another hard addiction to break is spending for the same reason. Its pretty hard to quit cold turkey.

But I’m pretty sure there aren’t chemicals in shopping like there are in tobacco or heroin that trigger addiction centers in the brain. Unless the malls have started pumping it in along with the muzak.

In the case of Tobacco at least, I’m of the opinion that the major source of the addiction is not physical. Sure, you get a rush from smoking, and that’s a trigger. But the main reason it was so hard to break for me (and I think a lot of people) is that I associated the act of smoking, in my mind, with having fun/taking a break.

I think of those times, kicking back on the dock at the cottage, feet in the water, having a smoke and watching the waves come in; or having a drink and a smoke with good friends - that’s the thing I miss (ignoring for the moment all those times freezing my ass off in the slush outside an office building in february).

The physical addition thing was easy to break - that was gone in a week, went I went cold turkey. a nasty week to be sure, but over pretty quick. What was really, really hard to deal with, what took literally months to get over (and I’m not sure I’m really over it yet) was learning to take breaks, sit back & have a drink, etc. without a cigarette. The two just went together so very, very well! It’s probably hard for any non-smoker to understand this.

I’m no shopping addict, or food addict for that matter; those things I can easily do to the minimum necessary. I can imagine though that shopping “addiction” feels sorta the same: shopping is what is “fun” for some folks, and asking them to give it up is like asking them to give up fun. In order to “cure” it what is probably necessary is for them to learn how to have fun some other way, because a life devoid of fun is grim.

[Spice_Weasel]

@Dangerosa

The whole situation makes me angry. Not on behalf of people who are making the choices - grownups get to make bad choices and if you want to eat yourself sick, or drink yourself dead, or ride a motorcycle in the rain at night without a helmet or proper gear - I kind of think that’s your problem, but the obesity epidemic in kids makes my blood boil.

I think what is especially problematic about the obesity epidemic in kids is that those habits are going to be so ingrained that by the time they reach adulthood making changes is going to be incredibly difficult.

But that is a contributing factor to why so many people are fat today. Nobody ever taught me good eating. Nutrition class is all well and fine, but it seemed completely removed from reality. It honestly never even occurred to me that it had to do with my life. I was just memorizing which vitamin deficiency caused which ailment.

My parents worked all the time, so I spent hours and hours of time at home alone, sometimes overnights, and when I got into my teens, even days. When it was time for grocery shopping, I got my own grocery cart to fill with whatever I wanted. Since I didn’t know how to cook that usually meant microwave crap. My parents did not care what I ate. My mother was severely depressed and bitched all the time about how much she hated food, how much she despised it, how much looking at it made her sick. My stepfather cooked fried shit all the time using crisco. That was what I was fed.

I was 24 years old before I learned how to cook for real. I had to learn a whole different way of looking at the universe. I honestly was skeptical that it was even possible to deliberately lose weight, and when I DID start losing weight, I was amazed.

So I know it’s possible, personally, I know it’s possible. But I’m also privileged, with a budget that can accommodate the best whole foods, with the ability to make time, to buy fitness equipment to keep my progress interesting, to consistently reward myself materially in a way that reinforces said progress. I have a lot of advantages that a number of people don’t have, including the fact that I have a naturally small appetite and I’m not addicted to food.

Those of us who are successful, I believe the deck is stacked in our favor in a meaningful way. I guess really what this comes down to for me is another inequality rant.

[DragonAsh]

A bit late to this party…

I have spent about half my life overseas, and it is always a massive shock to the system when I go back to the states: the portions are just disgustingly enormous. An appetizer plate advertised as ‘for 2-3’ would easily feed my entire hockey team.

In the US, the major cost component for restaurants isn’t food/ingredients, it’s labor. It’s easier and cheaper to promote ‘value! more for your money! We’ll fill you right up for less!’ than it is to promote actual good food. And it’s a shame - for a country of immigrants from countries with fantastic culinary histories, US cuisine in general sucks.

The idea that people are surrounded by ‘unhealthy food choices’? Sorry, I call bovine manure. Every restaurant I’ve been in for at least the last 10 years or so has had clearly-labled ‘healthy choice/vegetarian’ selections. Supermarkets? For example, I love yogurt. But good luck trying to buy good ol’ plain yogurt. Nope, everything is 'light/lite/no-fat/low-fat/lo-fat/reduced-fat etc etc etc. Ditto cream cheese, or seemingly every other product out there. Ghaaarrrr, just gimme some regular yogurt that actually tastes like yogurt!

The idea that people are overwhelmed by unhealthy food choices and have no other option but to go to Mickey D’s for a quarter-pounder with cheese is just nonsense.

And damn, I swear that every other conversation ends up being either about how so-and-so’s car broke down, or about their diet, and how they’re losing weight. If they spent only half as much time working at it as they do talking about it, they might actually lose some weight. Sorry to break the news, but flapping your gums doesn’t do much in the way of burning calories…

I have two pet peeves: First, playing obesity on ‘the media’. ‘All the media shows is buff, chiseled men and slim women!’. Really!? The horror! I can see how that would make you want to stuff peppermint bon-bons down your throat :rolleyes:. I can *possibly *see the media portraying only healthy-looking people as a factor behind, for example, anorexia nervosa. But the idea that seeing nothing but skinny people makes you become…not skinny? Nope, that’s just stupid.

Second pet peeve: when I have to listen to people who are horribly overweight talk about ‘how active they are’. ‘Oh, I don’t eat that much, and I’m moving around all day - I’d bet you couldn’t keep up with me if you followed me around all day’ etc etc etc. Actually, I bet I could. And I honestly think these people simply have some sort of selective memory that wipes out two thirds of what they put into their mouths that day.

I love to eat. My wife is a fantastic cook. I love cheese, I love beer (homebrew myself), I love just about anything deep-fried, and I love beer. Did I mention I love beer? So I know it would be very very easy to balloon like a beluga if I was careless. But I don’t want to be as big and round as my kitchen table, so it’s easy. Reasonable portions. A bit of exercise when I can. That’s all there is to it, really - it’s not rocket science, and you know what? It isn’t that hard.

Blame it on whatever you want - and it’s almost gotten to the point of being non-PC to suggest that people control their weight. But the CDC makes it very clear: genetics might play a role, but ultimately it comes down to personal choice.

If there are ‘fat’ genes, I’d like to know why those genes suddenly developed so rapidly in the last 20-30 years, and why the rest of the world for some reason doesn’t have them.

Bottom line: if people want to lose weight, they will. If they aren’t losing weight it’s either because they aren’t trying hard enough, or they simply are choosing not to. Because it’s not that hard. Hey, I could care less if that’s your choice. But I don’t want to have to sit on the plane next to you unless I’m flying towards the front (and either way I certainly feel like I should get a larger luggage allowance than you) and I don’t want to pay for your triple by-pass surgery…

[heatmiserfl]

@CarnalK

Actually your dubiousness is not a hijack at all, imo. It goes to the heart of the matter. It’s the North American idea that if you can decide that some physiological evidence makes something a “disease” we are helpless and must await medical intervention. The idea that we all must join _____s Anonymous and thus renounce our demon forever in order to be saved.

OK, that might have been a little over the top. Anywho, I don’t have time to do a lot of searching right now but just to let you know I’m not completely talking out of my ass, here’s a passing reference in a survey of Ontario treatment programs:
Journal of Studies on Alcohol and Drugs:

Which is not to say that there aren’t probably some people who should just never drink. Just that there’s probably a few people who could control themselves if they really tried.

I have to join in and agree that the AA notion of addictions being “diseases” that are out of our control to have little factual support. Maybe that’s why food addiction in America has not been properly addressed. Obviously, you can’t abstain from food so you must change your behavior. I like rational approaches that give you a skill set for dealing with addictions or just getting through difficult times to stave off serious depression. There’s plenty of programs out there (like SMART)

I also agree one of the posters who mentioned how processed food in the US is designed to feed addictive behavior. There have been plenty of studies showing that these types of foods work brain chemistry like any addictive drug.

Finally, another poster (sorry, I’m too lazy to go back and give proper credit) there have been studies on even the gut flora of obese people stimulates their appetite. What this person didn’t mention is that the change in gut flora was originally induced by a high fat diet. So the brain chemistry, adipocytes, immune system and GI tract create a positive feedback to encourage the addiction.

Back to the OP, I think she was simply frustrated with the few people who won’t admit that there is something wrong with being morbidly obese. I don’t mean morally wrong. I just mean that it is unhealthy for the person and our health care system. Plus it wastes the earth’s resources. It is also not out of the person’s control. It’s a struggle like any addiction but it should not be acceptable. Obviously Shots could have stated this more diplomatically and showed some empathy to addicts.

Finally, anyone who says that Shots From Guns is chubby is being dishonest. Her weight looks perfectly normal.

[Dangerosa]

@olivesmarch4th

Those of us who are successful, I believe the deck is stacked in our favor in a meaningful way. I guess really what this comes down to for me is another inequality rant.

Yep, life isn’t fair. And, as I said upthread, we all have our demons to overcome. But of all the demons that are out there, the people who have to overcome obesity are getting the biggest pass on whining about it (fat acceptance movement drives me nuts - I have no problem accepting my obese friends as the wonderful individuals they are, and respecting their choices as grown ups - but I’m not enabling those choices, sorry.). It isn’t acceptable to pat an alcoholic on the head and says “that’s ok, its genetic, your life is rough, alcohol is so much fun and gives you comfort, and its really hard to quit” why do the obese seem to want that?

[Spice_Weasel]

@Dangerosa

Yep, life isn’t fair. And, as I said upthread, we all have our demons to overcome. But of all the demons that are out there, the people who have to overcome obesity are getting the biggest pass on whining about it (fat acceptance movement drives me nuts - I have no problem accepting my obese friends as the wonderful individuals they are, and respecting their choices as grown ups - but I’m not enabling those choices, sorry.). It isn’t acceptable to pat an alcoholic on the head and says “that’s ok, its genetic, your life is rough, alcohol is so much fun and gives you comfort, and its really hard to quit” why do the obese seem to want that?

I’m honestly not familiar with the attitude you’ve witnessed. Not a single one of my fat friends ever comment on their weight besides, ‘‘I really need to lose weight one of these days.’’ I’ve never met a single fat person who blamed their genes or thyroid or whatever. I believe these people exist, but I haven’t met them.

As I stated upthread, I suspect a big part of the fat denial IS the stigma against fatness. If fat wasn’t associated with some character flaw I’m guessing more people would admit they had a problem and deal with it.

[DragonAsh]

Actually I think people are more likely to deal with the problem if they realize a character flaw is one of the factors causing the problem to begin with.

People deny the problem because they want to avoid dealing with the personal responsibility part.

[alice_in_wonderland]

@DragonAsh

Second pet peeve: when I have to listen to people who are horribly overweight talk about ‘how active they are’. ‘Oh, I don’t eat that much, and I’m moving around all day - I’d bet you couldn’t keep up with me if you followed me around all day’ etc etc etc. Actually, I bet I could. And I honestly think these people simply have some sort of selective memory that wipes out two thirds of what they put into their mouths that day.

You know, this just reminded me of a roommate that I had for a short time (I don’t know why I forgot, other than she was a dreadful roommate and maybe I was blocking it out. )

Anyhoo - Sally was somewhere between chubby and fat. She was 5’ tall and weighed about 170 lbs. (which according to the height weight chart is about like this: http://www.cockeyed.com/photos/bodies/500-160.shtml). It’s a BMI of 33.2 which is obese.

When Sally and I lived together I was VERY fit. About 5’8" and 120 lbs (sort of like this: http://www.cockeyed.com/photos/bodies/508-120.shtml). However, I went to the gym 7 days a week and worked out for about 2 hours every morning, and would then go back in the PM for a yoga class, or pilates or whatever about 4 days a week, and I pretty well ate nothing but fruit and cottage cheese.

Sally moved in and decided she wanted to copy my more healthy lifestyle. So she started eating why I ate, and going to the gym with me everyday. And surprise, surprise, she didn’t lose weight. And she said it was because of her genetics, and she had a health condition, and she was just born to be heavy.

Personally, I think that her lack of weightloss was due to the fact that at the gym she would follow me around and sit on a yoga ball while I exercised. Or sit on a bench while I did weights. Or sit in the change room eating a snack. Or sit in the steamroom making sure her muscles ‘didn’t get stiff’ after her workout. Or sit in the food fair while I was at yoga. Despite her membership I don’t think I ever saw her lift anything, or get on a piece of equipment, or actually do much of anything.

Food was the same. She would bring a healthy lunch to work, but I would walk by her office and there would be 4 or 5 empty chocolate bar wrappers on her desk and she would be polishing off another one.

Thing is, she wasn’t stupid - she was getting her PhD in a health science for God’s sake. I think she actually believed that by going to the gym and bringing a healthy lunch she was doing what she needed to do, and it never occured to her that she didn’t do anything in the gym and would eat her healthy lunch followed by a 5 chocolate bar chaser.

Anyway - what made me think of this was DragonAsh’s comment about ‘I bet you couldn’t keep up with me, etc’ - Sally used to say similar things - I can do 200 crunches! My stomach is like solid steel! etc. I never saw the girl do a single crunch, even when we were lying side by side on yoga balls and I was doing them.

Delusional, maybe.

[elmwood]

@DragonAsh

I have two pet peeves: First, playing obesity on ‘the media’. ‘All the media shows is buff, chiseled men and slim women!’. Really!? The horror! I can see how that would make you want to stuff peppermint bon-bons down your throat :rolleyes:. I can *possibly *see the media portraying only healthy-looking people as a factor behind, for example, anorexia nervosa. But the idea that seeing nothing but skinny people makes you become…not skinny? Nope, that’s just stupid.

That, and two conspiracy theories I’m always hearing about.

1. The diet industry wants you to remain fat so they have a steady stream of customers. Really? I’ve never seen any documented evidence of this; just this opinion parroted on the SDMB, fat advocacy blogs, and other related venues.

2. Fashion designers don’t make attractive women for overweight women because they want to shame fat women into becoming thin, or don’t want to have their brand seen on overweight bodies. Some say fashion designers are in concert with the diet industry. Thus, mumus.

[Dung_Beetle]

@elmwood

2. Fashion designers don’t make attractive women for overweight women because they want to shame fat women into becoming thin, or don’t want to have their brand seen on overweight bodies. Some say fashion designers are in concert with the diet industry. Thus, mumus.

As a skinny person, I say: Fashion industry ain’t nobody’s friend.

[MeanOldLady]

@DragonAsh

So I know it would be very very easy to balloon like a beluga if I was careless. But I don’t want to be as big and round as my kitchen table, so it’s easy. Reasonable portions. A bit of exercise when I can. That’s all there is to it, really - it’s not rocket science, and you know what? It isn’t that hard.*

Haven’t you been paying attention? Society… and addiction… and difficulties.
*Bolded because italics for emphasis don’t work so well when using the quote feature.

[DragonAsh]

@elmwood

2. Fashion designers don’t make attractive clothing *for overweight women because they want to shame fat women into becoming thin…

Well, they’re obviously doing a piss-poor job of it…

*Correction in italics mine…

[you_with_the_face]

@Dangerosa

It isn’t acceptable to pat an alcoholic on the head and says “that’s ok, its genetic, your life is rough, alcohol is so much fun and gives you comfort, and its really hard to quit” why do the obese seem to want that?

I think the issue here is that alcoholics are generally invisible. Their invisibility leaves them less open to criticism, judgement, and badgering, so they don’t develop the defensiveness that many overweight people do. When someone feels attacked all the time, it’s not a surprise that they will seek solace in an acceptance movement and beg people to get off their backs. I can empathize with this reaction, if only because I can only imagine how critical of myself I’d be if I were fat, let alone have to put up with the critical eye of everyone around me.

Also, alcoholics are less functional than your typical overweight person, so “it’s okay being me!” is a less credible defense. An alcoholic can easily kill or maim someone by driving drunk, they often end up losing their job by showing up with booze on their breathe, and their personalities become intolerable to their loved ones. Your average fat person displays none of this. Their problem with food in most cases doesn’t spillover into anyone else’s well-being. Okay, so maybe it does if you’re talking about airline seats, or in a broader sense, the increased cost of healthcare yadda yadda. But on an individual level (since that is what this thread seems to be about), the dining habits of Oprah and Kirstie Alley or whomever else is of little direct consequence to anyone else.

Both my parents are overweight. Most of my extended family is fat too. I have a good girlffriend who is fat, too. All of them know why they are overweight. They also know being fat is bad. They’d much rather be thin. And none of them are too stupid to know that eating less will make them slimmer. They stay fat, though.

The way I look at it there is nothing that I can do make them change without causing more harm than good. All I can do is to continue to model good behavior, tell them what I do to stay thin when asked, and encourage them when they make steps in the right direction.

Is there another course of action that someone recommends? I ask because the concensus in this thread seems to be that us thin folks need to stop coddling the fatties around us and start telling it like it is. But I’m having a real hard time seeing what this would look like in civil society, though. As opposed to an anoynomous message board.

[tacoloco]

@you_with_the_face

But I’m having a real hard time seeing what this would look like in civil society, though. As opposed to an anoynomous message board.

It doesn’t work in a civil context.

A stranger telling me “lose weight, fattie”, isn’t going to get a civil response.